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Thread: UK work time opt-out under threat

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Slainte View Post


    What does it have to do with anything?
    I mean I was wondering if the French people are doing well, why do the company's need subsidizing? Could it be they are paying to much for to little?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slainte View Post
    This really shows how completely you ignored everything I wrote...

    NationMaster - Encyclopedia: List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita per hour

    France = 3, USA = 4
    Because I missed "per hour" I am ignoring it? It is obvious I did not understand what you were saying.

    Excuse me for misunderstanding what you meant. No need to be an ass about it.

    Jees you people are thin skinned.

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Its a few when the difference in GDP is so small.. A few percentage points only.
    It is 3000 to 5000 dollars in difference. Multiplied by the population of each country it is indeed a large difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    All those things is the French social system that for example pays for child sitting and cleaning of your house if you have children. It also actually pays you money for each child(when born and each month) so that you don't get strained with cash, it also pays for childcare, kindergarten, school. This is just to mention a few of thousands of benefits the French enjoy and still they can affordto subsidize some companies, and still they can afford to not use all their time for work, and still they have almost the same GDP as the US(annually), and as a result of all these things they have a much higher hourly GDP than any western nation(including other European nations with similar but not as good social systems as the French)..
    In the end this is why the French pay such high taxes and why they keep getting higher.

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    This is exactly why I have learned to ignore that guy, you will be better of doing the same..
    So I guess this makes you a liar as well?

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It is 3000 to 5000 dollars in difference. Multiplied by the population of each country it is indeed a large difference.
    Its not a large difference if you consider the French have much shorter work days in average and weeks more of vacation every year.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    In the end this is why the French pay such high taxes and why they keep getting higher.

    Yep, but in the US much of the same things are private paid, and if you count those costs it accounts to more, especially health care. You would be surprised to know that French taxes arent even among the highest in Europe, not really that high at all..
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So I guess this makes you a liar as well?
    I debate with you when you debate properly.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Why do you assume things you know NOTHING about?
    I'm going off your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Everyone have to work overtime every day, and preferably work weekends to be able to keep up with everyone else.; I guess we are just one step further from what you are..
    Did you not write this? You're claiming all this aggregate affects as reasons why you people are in the trouble that we don't have in our country. That people are trying to keep up with others and that process has become prohibitively expensive. That's your claim, that is what you have written down, that is your argument. Don't come screaming at me having a tizzy fit because of it. Also, your personal situation doesn't affect your argument because your argument is an AGGREGATE effect, that's how you talk of it. You personally don't have any impact on the argument. Your aggregate argument is that some small group of people worked a lot, got money, and started buying things. This drove prices up (I already had shown how this couldn't actually work the way you claim, but you've never responded to that), other people then had to work more to afford things, this drove up prices, etc. This is aggregate effects. You may be doing well, but you still perceive a problem. People have to work, preferably on the weekends too, to keep up with everyone else. Your words, your argument; deal with it. Nothing says that one has to keep up with anyone else. You personally may not do it, but enough people in your society do to have caused it to get to a point in which you think the government needs to step in and do something about it. I don't care about you personally. You can't disprove an aggregate claim (and it's your aggregate claim anyway) by citing individual examples.

    As I said, get some unions going if this is a real problem. Otherwise, if you're going to use government it would be better to use it market side than labor side.

    [QUOTE=Maximus Zeebra;1057855053]I AM HAPPY about 30 hours, I MANAGE DAMN fine with it.. Are you not sick of the way you assume people think?
    Its about me, if you started readin some of my posts you would possibly understand what I am saying, but yoo are unfocused and clearly just want to come up with another personal attack.. I am making more than average people even with a 30 hour week, thats not the issue like ive said to you 100 times now.. But what about Norway? you didnt understand the example, everyone have to work overtime in order to afford to live even a simple life..

    It angers me the ability of people here to ignore what is actually said and continue their prejudice rant.[/quote[

    I find it funny that you ignore your very own arguments just to launch into an attack. Present your arguments in a clear and precise manner if you don't wish to be misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Of course they dont, but you dont accomplish in an hour what they do
    I will damned well gaurnatee you right here and right now that I get done well more in an hour than most people do in the day. Don't sit there and think scientists are lazy. We're not working 12+ hours a day because we're not accomplishing anything. My productivity is well above the common French worker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    .. Its like you say in France also, everyone there can work better than the next man and he will keep his job, but they ALSO have social security which you dont.. They have in fact everything that you have and a ton of extra good stuff as well.
    Like social immobility? You know why the Muslim sector in France riots all the time? It's not because Islam is violent. It's because the construct of the French workplace prohibits them from entering. They are kept poor on purpose, kept in their place. The French have hard time replacing workers because their rules can't get rid of ineffective workers already in the market place. Therefore, the younger generation can not break in as easily. All the rules are set up against mobility. Placate enough people, and they'll never raise their fist to you. But it's not all peaches and cream there. Nothing ever is, there is no perfect system. There will always be rich and there will always be poor. I say the better system is one which allows turn over. Let the rich get poor if they don't work. Let the poor get rich if they do work. Social and financial mobility are key. France doesn't have this, socialist countries on the whole don't have this. Free market capitalism does. Everything has strengths, everything has weaknesses. You can sit there and cite the French all you want, but that's not a system I want. They don't take care of everybody, it's in fact built upon stagnation. Stagnation is death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Thats why your veterans sleep on the streets..
    There are a few things which go into that one, but yes our work system is one of the contributors.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Did you not write this? You're claiming all this aggregate affects as reasons why you people are in the trouble that we don't have in our country. That people are trying to keep up with others and that process has become prohibitively expensive. That's your claim, that is what you have written down, that is your argument. Don't come screaming at me having a tizzy fit because of it. Also, your personal situation doesn't affect your argument because your argument is an AGGREGATE effect, that's how you talk of it. You personally don't have any impact on the argument. Your aggregate argument is that some small group of people worked a lot, got money, and started buying things. This drove prices up (I already had shown how this couldn't actually work the way you claim, but you've never responded to that), other people then had to work more to afford things, this drove up prices, etc. This is aggregate effects. You may be doing well, but you still perceive a problem. People have to work, preferably on the weekends too, to keep up with everyone else. Your words, your argument; deal with it
    .
    Finally you understand, this is the situation in the country I am from, which I moved away from because it was so silly and people just work all the time, people are angry if they need to take a minute away from work or "waste" any of their precious spare time.
    I just cant handle the country, I am not like that, I dont want to be a slave, I prefer to be a free man, and guess what, I am, and I am far better of than most people in my country(fortunately and unfortunately).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Nothing says that one has to keep up with anyone else. You personally may not do it, but enough people in your society do to have caused it to get to a point in which you think the government needs to step in and do something about it. I don't care about you personally. You can't disprove an aggregate claim (and it's your aggregate claim anyway) by citing individual examples. .
    Most of the time, if you don't work 60+ hours a week you cant even afford to live, so yes, everyone has to follow up. The possibilities of making it big(business unfriendly) are also very limited in my home country which makes the situation even more unbearable, because you have no choice, you just have to work all the time.
    Its a shameful thing to be aware of, especially when the slaves don't know it them self and are "happy" to remain in slavery in lack of better options and possibilities. Only solution is to move from the country.
    If we change to the Euro and become member of the EU much will change, we will regain freedoms, prices will fall, competition increase, monopolies fall and unambitious isolation policies be gone. The people would instantly be freed from slavery as a result of collapsing prices and become instantly rich rather than just the state being rich.
    Some months after we become member of the EU I will probably move back to a completely new and better country that hopefully have the new EU work limit law in place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    As I said, get some unions going if this is a real problem. Otherwise, if you're going to use government it would be better to use it market side than labor side.
    Norway is one of the strongest unionized countries in Europe, clearly that doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I find it funny that you ignore your very own arguments just to launch into an attack. Present your arguments in a clear and precise manner if you don't wish to be misunderstood.
    I was just angry with the way you looked at my 30 hour work week(claiming I am lazy) and had an over emotional answer(and missed one word).. ("not about me")


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I will damned well gaurnatee you right here and right now that I get done well more in an hour than most people do in the day. Don't sit there and think scientists are lazy. We're not working 12+ hours a day because we're not accomplishing anything. My productivity is well above the common French worker.
    I admire scientists, I never said you were lazy.. But apparently French scientists are just more effective when they are at work(and its not as often as American colleagues).

    Why cant you accomplish what you do in 12 hours in say 8 hours? What exactly is it you do? Wait around for results and such? You cant be working hardcore the whole 12 hours, I would think(perhaps of prejudice) that you are working in a relaxed pace rather than intense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Like social immobility? You know why the Muslim sector in France riots all the time? It's not because Islam is violent. It's because the construct of the French workplace prohibits them from entering. They are kept poor on purpose, kept in their place.
    I am aware of this problem, but its deeply rooted in the system, there arent for example many qualified immigrants compared with French counterparts, but they want the same jobs and blame "racial and ethnic" issues when the problem is rather with the way they are integrated from the beginning. Over generations this difference means less and less, and with high qualified immigrants they usually get the same jobs as native French. I guess they have become the "American blacks" of Europe. Social desperation creating more social desperation.. But this is a result of most of them having no skills set when they arrive and it just continues in a bad spiral. Proper education is no available to the people of the ghettos and they don't get out of the ghettos because they cant get proper education.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The French have hard time replacing workers because their rules can't get rid of ineffective workers already in the market place. Therefore, the younger generation can not break in as easily. All the rules are set up against mobility. Placate enough people, and they'll never raise their fist to you. But it's not all peaches and cream there. Nothing ever is, there is no perfect system.
    Its because of traditions. But its all changing now, fast, the French job system is becoming more flexible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There will always be rich and there will always be poor. I say the better system is one which allows turn over.
    This is the problem, you have 3 classes in France, the poor, the large middle class and the rich.
    Its difficult to move up in any of these classes, but possible to move down. The poor are mostly first, second and third generation immigrants, only the third have a chance at moving up to the middle class, but its rare. The middle class are mostly the native French and they cant move unto the upper class because those are people whom have been rich for generations. So its very inflexible.
    I believe its about the same in the US but a bit more flexible between middle class and rich and the possibility of moving from the poor class to the rich immediately. But its difficult for example for the blacks and Hispanics to move to the middle class and you have a large part of natives whom belong to the poor class unlike France where its almost just immigrants in comparison.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Let the rich get poor if they don't work. Let the poor get rich if they do work. Social and financial mobility are key. France doesn't have this, socialist countries on the whole don't have this. Free market capitalism does. Everything has strengths, everything has weaknesses. You can sit there and cite the French all you want, but that's not a system I want. They don't take care of everybody, it's in fact built upon stagnation. Stagnation is death.
    Never said the French are perfect, but its a damn good system compared with most, especially for the French and the middle class.

    Aside from that I think the only solution to the class problem is to have new policies in inheritance. Many rich people are morons whom have done nothing to get where they are and are just wasting the money.. Sure they deserve to have a safe life that their fathers provided to them, but I believe personally that inheritance must be somewhat limited so secure them a comfortable life and then let the rest go to the state and redistribution. To be a little more raw everyone deserve to start from scratch and have no inheritance, but this would be unfeasible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There are a few things which go into that one, but yes our work system is one of the contributors.
    You just need a better social protection system, thats all. Veterans should be treated as heroes and rewarded as such, they have never done anything wrong(except criminals among them), its rather politicians whom should end up on the streets.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    In the end this is why the French pay such high taxes and why they keep getting higher.
    Not exactly true.

    According to KPMG's individual tax rate survey of 2008, France does not have much higher tax rate than the US.

    KPMG - Corporate and indirect tax rate survey 2008

    Needs PDF to read.

    But the basics is that France has 40% and the US has 35%.

    Considering that the US citizen also has to pay for healthcare, then the US tax rate is "low" and incomparable with the French one, which has universal healthcare in it.

    One could easily claim that the average French person has more disposable income than the average US person that pays healthcare insurance to achieve the same coverage as the French person.
    PeteEU

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    What he says is true.. And all those other benefits are also included, those I mentioned for example, along thousands of others.. The French are almost spoiled by their government..
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    BTW, Max; I'll tell you this. French scientists aren't working the hours you claim, they work hours I work. Scientists are scientists. I've personally worked with many scientists from several countries (one in fact was French), we always put in many many hours. And it is rigorous work too. It may be "relaxed" in that there isn't a person standing over your shoulder shouting at you all the time (though that does happen). But it's a ton of work, way more work than many people regardless of country could deal with. We're always doing it, there's a puzzle and it needs to be solved and you want to be the one to solve it; that's how it works. No scientist puts in 30 or even a mere 40 hours a week, they'll lie on their time sheet to make it look like the work less before they actually work less.

    Also, I know lots of people who work well over 60+ hours and it's not just to "live". Top notch lawyers (and this is true regardless of country as well) put in way way way more than that. Way more than that. And they're rich, so it's not to live; it's to do a job and do it well and do it better than anyone else. The labor restrictive rules basically tell someone "no, you can not be better than anyone else".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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