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Thread: UK work time opt-out under threat

  1. #101
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Thanks for explaining it easily.. They just misunderstand me here..


    But then again, Americans do not like protection and regulation..
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So you are saying that you have no respect for your fellow man, since almost every single person is weak when it comes to a negotiation between company vs person??...............including yourself.. unless you are the company.
    That's what unions are for.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The way we run our countries is not much different than how the US is run, with the exception we actually have transparency and accountability here.
    No you don't, don't even try to pretend you do. No government has transparency and accountability; it's against the innate nature of government. Things are pretty similar. There's the aristocracy whom are mostly in charge of everything. They do as they wish, make the laws they want, pretty much exempt themselves from those laws, and move in ways to help their friends get richer. Transparency and accountability!? I bet there is a ton of stuff your government does that you don't know about. That's a dangerous thing about government, that's why it should be controlled, that's why you need to find ways to do things yourself without increasing government. Government is inherently untrustworthy, but now you use it to regulate how much a man can do. He can work more...but he has to fill out paperwork. How long till that paperwork vanishes and he can't work any more? Save him from those "slave" hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I can set up a business wherever and whenever I want. I can move where ever and when ever I want. I can choose my doctor and dentist. In fact I can not see anything radically different between Europe or America on how life "goes on".
    The difference is in perception of purpose and duty of government.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #103
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's what unions are for.
    Yep

    No you don't, don't even try to pretend you do. No government has transparency and accountability; it's against the innate nature of government. Things are pretty similar.
    No it aint. Transparency and accountability is part of government if that government is run to near efficiency (as in as efficient as government can be). Once both are gone then the government runs inefficient and can and will be abused. If there are no checks and balances, then people in government will abuse the system for their own gain. We have seen this time and time again and some of the more spectacular examples come from the US.

    Hence in most European countries on a national and in some on a local level, there are very clear rules on things like conflicts of interest and so on. Do they get followed all the time? Of course not, but they are there and they do get followed a great deal of the time in most countries. Again, let me remind you, every country in Europe has different traditions on governance. Scandinavian countries for example are know for their fairness, accountability and transparency where as places like Italy (nationally and locally) and Spain (locally) are known as cesspools of nepotism and corruption.

    There's the aristocracy whom are mostly in charge of everything. They do as they wish, make the laws they want, pretty much exempt themselves from those laws, and move in ways to help their friends get richer.
    Care to name them in say the UK? Or France, or other countries? Other than political dynasties (parents and children being political) then I cant name any "aristocracy" that are in "charge of everything". I can also not name any politician in Europe that has the perception of being in the "pocket" of private business, unlike many American politicians (else they could not get elected). One reason is that most country's ban political donations from private business...

    Transparency and accountability!? I bet there is a ton of stuff your government does that you don't know about. That's a dangerous thing about government, that's why it should be controlled, that's why you need to find ways to do things yourself without increasing government.
    If you are talking about my home country.. you are incorrect. The transparency of government is a key foundation of society in Denmark. Does government "hide" stuff.. sure national security and so on, but all policies, everything that is bought by government and so on can be accessed by anyone and questioned by anyone. We are a haven of statistics and information, accessible by anyone for free. On top of that we have more than 2 political parties, and the range from hard right (Republican like) to the far left communists, and believe me they keep each other in check just fine.

    Government is inherently untrustworthy, but now you use it to regulate how much a man can do. He can work more...but he has to fill out paperwork. How long till that paperwork vanishes and he can't work any more? Save him from those "slave" hours.
    What a load of bs. Big corporations are far more untrustworthy since they are first off not elected, and secondly only see a profit margin.. if they can earn a buck killing you, and get away with it.. they will do so. Hence an uncorrupted government is needed to defend the weak in society (aka the normal citizen) against the abuse of the strong (big business, organisations and even government departments). The only way that government can achieve this is if said government is transparent and accountable for its actions. And that is the main difference between the US and most European countries. In the US, big corporations have had far far too much say in the running of the country and government has failed in its nr. 1 job, to protect the citizens against abuse by a 3rd party.

    The difference is in perception of purpose and duty of government.
    Yes it is, but the American view on the purpose and duty of government is often irrational and inconsistent. By listening to these boards and American's in general, one would think that government was the source of all evil and to blame for everything and had no real purpose in society.
    PeteEU

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Government has purpose, to ensure the rights and liberties of the individual. Government is a source of "evil" I guess. It always pushes to expand its power, all government does this. To pretend otherwise is foolish. France has its socialism, UK has cameras everywhere, most of Europe have disarmed the people, etc. Small government is fine and serves a purpose, large government is "evil" of sorts and works against the people. As government grows, liberty decreases; this is necessarily true. You want to list off of your government loving BS. Pretending your government ain't corrupt and that it's open to you. It's open to you so long as you don't break one of its rules (like working overtime). Your politicians are just as crooked as ours. They're all from the same place for the most part, the rich upper class.

    All government if left unchecked will be corrupt, all government if left unchecked will grow in power and scope till it has usurped all it can. Fundamental behavior and evolution of government. Government works best when it is inefficient. When there are plenty of checks and balances in there (which will, of course, slow the process down) to prevent one branch from gaining dominance. Restrictions are for the government, not the People.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    But then again, Americans do not like protection and regulation..
    We don't?

    What sort of evidence do you have to support such a conclusion?

    While we may feel frustrated with certain regulations and how they are imposed, there's no general attitude that governmental regulation is simply unnecessary or otherwise undesireable.

    For example, many Americans probably don't want to see endangered species go extinct, so, generally, we approve of regulations to protect such species. However, when such regulations result in private property being seized by a government agency as these protections are being enforced, well, we can agree on the end, but not necessarily the means.


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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    We don't?

    What sort of evidence do you have to support such a conclusion?

    While we may feel frustrated with certain regulations and how they are imposed, there's no general attitude that governmental regulation is simply unnecessary or otherwise undesireable.

    For example, many Americans probably don't want to see endangered species go extinct, so, generally, we approve of regulations to protect such species. However, when such regulations result in private property being seized by a government agency as these protections are being enforced, well, we can agree on the end, but not necessarily the means.

    Clearly judging from a variety of things Americans do not like social protection and regulation in general, they prefer to "go it alone".
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Clearly judging from a variety of things Americans do not like social protection and regulation in general, they prefer to "go it alone".
    Again, what are you basing this conclusion on?

    I know you saw the question the first time I asked...well?

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Government has purpose, to ensure the rights and liberties of the individual. Government is a source of "evil" I guess. It always pushes to expand its power, all government does this.
    No politicians do that, and especially when there is no accountability or transparency. Politicians allow a slacking of oversight, transparency and accountability for personal, political or "friends" reasons, and that ultimately hurts the average Joe. Look at the whole credit crunch.

    France has its socialism
    Here again, you are wrong on so many levels. The government does not own the production apparatus or the land. That is one of the main cornerstones of socialism.

    Does France, like every other country in Europe (minus the UK kinda) have a safety net for its citizens? Yes, but that is only part of socialism, not the whole thing.. in fact it is a small part. We have in fact a very liberal (in the true sense of the word) conservative free market system. Are there restrictions on what companies can do, ranging from employees to safety to environment and so on? You bet, that is the role of government to force industry to play fair. Is some of it over the top? You bet, but hardly everything. I think it is fair that a woman cant be fired because she gets pregnant. I think it is fair that a person cant be fired because he is a red head, or black, or Jewish. I also think it is a good idea to have rules and regulation on medicine, health care, safety and other things, because no way industry would implement it themselves.. after industry had to be forced to not using children in coal mines....

    UK has cameras everywhere
    Yes they have. But it is the conservative movement that mostly says.. if you are not doing anything wrong then you should not fear them.. Have the Brits gone overboard.. you bet if you ask me. But the UK aint Europe, and the UK is a special case when it comes to its transparency and accountability in political life.. not to mention political life as a whole. But saying that, it is still far healthier than many countries, since there are 3 major parties, and a ton of local parties that get elected (plus the wacko candidates).

    most of Europe have disarmed the people, etc
    They were never armed in the first place, so kinda hard to disarm the people.

    Small government is fine and serves a purpose, large government is "evil" of sorts and works against the people. As government grows, liberty decreases; this is necessarily true. You want to list off of your government loving BS. Pretending your government ain't corrupt and that it's open to you. It's open to you so long as you don't break one of its rules (like working overtime).
    First off I aint pretending that my government aint corrupt, I am saying that is harder to be corrupt in most European governments due to transparency laws and checks and balances. Does it happen? You bet it does, and people get booted out of politics and thrown in jail for it. I happen to live in one area of Europe that has been plagued by massive corruption and due to lack of transparency and nepotism it was left to continue for over a decade, fueled by greed and stupidity.. I mean the local council bought a freaking Rolls for the all powerful mayor. Only when the local power man (the Mayor) died, did the house of cards fall apart, and now the "rich town" of Europe Marbella is in deep debt and most of the former town council is facing heavy jail time. So corruption does happen, especially in Southern Europe.

    As for your growing government. It is a stupid argument because what is a "big government". Number of employees per capita? Is it the amount of money spent by the government? Is it number of laws and regulations? what is "big government"? I could easily claim that the US government is huge because you have so many in the military.

    Your politicians are just as crooked as ours. They're all from the same place for the most part, the rich upper class.
    You sure about that. Lets see.. Tony Blair. Born in Scotland, to a father who the illegitimate son of 2 actors, and who was adopted by a shipyard worker. His mother was the daughter of a butcher.. OHHH the upper class.

    Gordon Brown. Father a priest, mother the daughter of a timber merchant.. getting closer to the rich upper class I see.

    Zapatero of Spain.. Father was a lawyer.. guess that can be called upper class in Spain during Franco.. Grandfather a republican solider shot by Franco.... and then maybe not so upper.

    Angela Merkel ... father a priest too.

    Sarkozy..... BINGO, a real aristocrat!.. only problem is that it was in Hungry before they fled to France and before Sarkozy was born. Father was a doctor I think..

    Seriously, I can not see any major politician in Europe coming from the "upper rich class" .. do they exist? Sure, but hardly the norm that is for sure.

    Even the Danish PMs for many years, came from middle to lower class backgrounds.. so much for the "upper rich" class.

    All government if left unchecked will be corrupt, all government if left unchecked will grow in power and scope till it has usurped all it can. Fundamental behavior and evolution of government. Government works best when it is inefficient. When there are plenty of checks and balances in there (which will, of course, slow the process down) to prevent one branch from gaining dominance. Restrictions are for the government, not the People.
    Yes government left unchecked will be corrupt.. look at the Bush administration. That is why we have checks and balances in Europe, but most importantly, a level of accountability and transparency that the US at the moment lacks.

    The restrictions you talk about are for the government, so they dont abuse their power.. hence the checks and balances, accountability and transparency are very important, but the role of government is also to protect the people from abuse by industry (aka the upper rich class) and to make sure that society as a whole is safe, secure and prospering.
    PeteEU

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Look at the whole credit crunch.
    The credit crunch the world is currently experiencing is not a result of politicians "allow[ing] a slacking of oversight, transparency and accountability for personal, political or "friends" reasons." You're revealing a fundamental ignorance of current economic conditions.

    Lending institutions are not lending not because politicians have created rules and regulations reducing oversight, transparency, or accountability. Lenders are not lending because they don't trust other financial institutions who have a whole of toxic assets on their books or that businesses and individuals will have the capability of paying it back.

    In any case, the bottomline is that if you're going to argue that this was a politician-driven mess, then you're ultimately arguing against governmental intervention.

    Yes government left unchecked will be corrupt.. look at the Bush administration.
    So you're going to argue that Bush was left unchecked?

    Then why did Bush go to Congress to get congressional authorization to use military force in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why did Bush abandon the Executive branch's military tribunals process and instead, present and agree to a military tribunal plan drafted by Congress at the direction of the US Supreme Court?

    Answer: Bush was not left "unchecked."

    That is why we have checks and balances in Europe, but most importantly, a level of accountability and transparency that the US at the moment lacks.
    Really? You're going to argue that as the Euro Union attempts to backdoor the EU Constitution via the treaty process because thos epesky voters have so far said, "No, thanks"? And as the US is in the middle of an orderly transition in the Executive branch?

    Really?

  10. #110
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    And there's the difference, though you wanted to take the perceptual difference on the purpose of government and use it to insult the whole of America. We view the primary role of government to uphold and proliferate the innate and inalienable rights of the individual. Governments go bad, they all do. You want to sit and pretend that yours isn't as bad as America. But the West in general has enjoyed a long long time at the top and the lot of it has been getting horrible for a long time now. You're no different. You may want your government to do different things than America, but your government ends up the same. There is definitely back down wheeling and dealing going on in the EU the same as the US. Hell the two governments are probably well in bed with each other. Kinda explain a bit why Blair seemed like nothing more than a puppet for Bush.

    The work place socialism for France goes beyond worker protection, BTW. It's a systematic market manipulation to ensure people don't lose jobs or get kicked out of the market place. On the surface it seems like a good idea. But in practice it stifles social movement, and also creates a huge barrier to entry for anyone wishing to participate in the market. Hence why immigrants to France can't get jobs and why their young people have a hard time entering the work place as well. It all adds up to stagnation, and stagnation brings slow death. You have to have a dynamic for turn over, that's all there is to it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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