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Thread: UK work time opt-out under threat

  1. #91
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    BTW, Max; I'll tell you this. French scientists aren't working the hours you claim, they work hours I work. Scientists are scientists. I've personally worked with many scientists from several countries (one in fact was French), we always put in many many hours. And it is rigorous work too. It may be "relaxed" in that there isn't a person standing over your shoulder shouting at you all the time (though that does happen). But it's a ton of work, way more work than many people regardless of country could deal with. We're always doing it, there's a puzzle and it needs to be solved and you want to be the one to solve it; that's how it works. No scientist puts in 30 or even a mere 40 hours a week, they'll lie on their time sheet to make it look like the work less before they actually work less.

    Also, I know lots of people who work well over 60+ hours and it's not just to "live". Top notch lawyers (and this is true regardless of country as well) put in way way way more than that. Way more than that. And they're rich, so it's not to live; it's to do a job and do it well and do it better than anyone else. The labor restrictive rules basically tell someone "no, you can not be better than anyone else".
    I never actually said scientitist in France only work 35 hours..

    Whats the point of being rich if you cant live your life? I feel sorry for those lawyers.

    Working more is not "being better than someone else".
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  2. #92
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I HAVE FREEDOM, I LOVE FREEDOM.. WHY DO YOU SAY I DONT? DID I EVER SAY I DIDNT?
    Why don't you support people having the freedom of people to negotiate their own contracts?

    Nope, but I am HAPPY about the PROTECTIOn the EU gives rather than the LACK of protection and brainwashing the US government CLEARLY gives you..
    I don't need the government to protect me. I'm perfectly capable of talking to my employers and negotiating my own hours. If my employer disagrees I can leave whenever I like.

    It angers me to see the way you do "intellectual debate"..

    geee..
    It bothers me that you can't explain why people in Europe aren't allowed to work the hours they choose to.

    I cant explain it because its too cryptic the way Americans debate..

    1 Someone says something
    2 American claims what that someone has said and rephrase it to fit his own image
    3 American pounds on his own wrong quotation of that someone
    4 Someone proves him wrong
    5 American goes into national pride mode and picks apart 1 of 50 facts
    6 American then starts debating that 1 fact instead of original context
    7 The Someone is dragged into another debate and another and another until the American is eventually right about something
    8 The someone tries to get back to the point, the broader picture, the context of everything
    9 American is tunnel visioned into what he sees as him winning the debate because he was right about something
    10 American starts ranting on about loads of irrelevant things and avoids the original context and the broader debate
    11 The someone desperately tries to get back on track and debate in an intellectual fashion
    12 The American high on himself starts the personal attacks
    13 The someone who is right about what he is saying just gives up trying to prove anything to the American because he will not listen to what he is saying.


    Conclusion.. There is a major issue with how you people debate on this forum. You put misquoted opinions into people. You rephrase things to fit you vision of things, go on with personal attacks and stays away from looking at the facts. You never admit that someone else is right even when they clearly are..
    When have I misquoted you? If you feel like it go through my posts and show how I've done this to you. As is you sound like a child throwing a tantrum.

    It just pisses me off enormously. Dont be emotional, be intellectual!
    Where was I emotional?

    This is not really about you RightOfCenter, because you usually don't do these things, but you doing it was the creaming of the angry cake, I'm rather disappointed with you, dont follow in the footsteps of idiots, use your brain man.
    Trust me, I am using my brain. I truly want to know why you feel that people aren't smart enough or unions aren't powerful enough to negotiate their own contracts with their employers? Why does the government have to do it for them?
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
    I never thought infanticide could be so delicious.

  3. #93
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    BTW, Max; I'll tell you this. French scientists aren't working the hours you claim, they work hours I work. Scientists are scientists. I've personally worked with many scientists from several countries (one in fact was French), we always put in many many hours. And it is rigorous work too. It may be "relaxed" in that there isn't a person standing over your shoulder shouting at you all the time (though that does happen). But it's a ton of work, way more work than many people regardless of country could deal with. We're always doing it, there's a puzzle and it needs to be solved and you want to be the one to solve it; that's how it works. No scientist puts in 30 or even a mere 40 hours a week, they'll lie on their time sheet to make it look like the work less before they actually work less.

    Also, I know lots of people who work well over 60+ hours and it's not just to "live". Top notch lawyers (and this is true regardless of country as well) put in way way way more than that. Way more than that. And they're rich, so it's not to live; it's to do a job and do it well and do it better than anyone else. The labor restrictive rules basically tell someone "no, you can not be better than anyone else".
    What exactly does a physicist do?
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
    I never thought infanticide could be so delicious.

  4. #94
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Whats the point of being rich if you cant live your life? I feel sorry for those lawyers.
    And I feel sorry for fundamentalist Christians and telemarketers. Doesn't mean I want the government to ban Chirsitanity or telemarketing.

    Living your life simply means doing what you want to. If what you want to do isn't harmful to anyone else, especially if it's productive (i.e. work), then why can't you do it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat
    Heh. Do you realize how many children I'd murder to be immortal and have an army of willing slaves?

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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    Why don't you support people having the freedom of people to negotiate their own contracts?
    Because many people are weak loosers, because the majority of people are dumb and prone to exploitation.
    Why dont we just take away all government laws and regulation and see what happens? They were there for a reason in the first place, and there is a reason for this new law, which I have explained to you several times my opinions as to the reasons and even some of the stated reasons. If you want to know more I suggest you read up on it yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    I don't need the government to protect me. I'm perfectly capable of talking to my employers and negotiating my own hours. If my employer disagrees I can leave whenever I like.
    You, no, me, no, somebody yes.. Just because me and you don't need this doesn't mean other people do not, its meant as protection for the weak.. Example:
    Commission acts on excessive working time in Greece - EC

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    It bothers me that you can't explain why people in Europe aren't allowed to work the hours they choose to.
    They can..

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    Where was I emotional?
    You were, I also were, stupid of me to react in such a way.. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    Trust me, I am using my brain. I truly want to know why you feel that people aren't smart enough or unions aren't powerful enough to negotiate their own contracts with their employers? Why does the government have to do it for them?
    Unions sucks, they dont cover all work, governments can cover ALL forms of work.. Why do we need unions exactly?

    Aside, I already told you unions have a weak position in many European countries.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  6. #96
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    What exactly does a physicist do?
    Physics.

    >.>

    <.<

    It actually depends on what you like. Me, I'm an AMO type of guy (atomic, molecular, and optical physics). So my research is focused on laser cooling and trapping of atoms and Bose-Einstein condensation. Great stuff, great stuff. I'd never want to do anything else.

    The people I mostly know are research scientists which means exactly as the title states. We do research, apply for grants and develop new investigations and understanding. Physics tends to be a more "pure" science, in that it's not being developed with any one product in mind; but rather to study and investigate the base nature of specific dynamics. There's tons and tons of applied science, but you can't have applied science without base science. It's one of the few reasons I think one proper action of government is to fund scientific research. Base science in and of itself is not profitable. It's applied science that is, but you can't advance applied science without base science.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #97
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Edify_Always_In_All_Ways View Post
    And I feel sorry for fundamentalist Christians and telemarketers. Doesn't mean I want the government to ban Chirsitanity or telemarketing.

    Living your life simply means doing what you want to. If what you want to do isn't harmful to anyone else, especially if it's productive (i.e. work), then why can't you do it?
    I feel sorry for them to, and fundamentalists in general. Perhaps we should regulate it?

    Many people are being exploited, that isn't ok, this upper limit to work will help many people.

    Aside from that, living a life of only work is rather unproductive.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 12-21-08 at 08:23 PM.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  8. #98
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I never actually said scientitist in France only work 35 hours..
    Your rhetoric definitely suggested otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Whats the point of being rich if you cant live your life? I feel sorry for those lawyers.
    You'd have to ask them. I imagine to them law is like science to me. There are certain things in this life that you just love to no end and you want to do. Competition brings this out a lot, and law is competitive (as is science, but probably not quite to the same extent). I'd feel sad for anyone whom didn't have a passion that could consume them if they weren't careful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Working more is not "being better than someone else".
    Depends on what you're doing...even for the factory lineman it can be. Science it is. You don't get anywhere in this field by doing less than the guy next to you. You always have to perform, you always have to work, you always have to produce. New science, new papers, new understanding; gotta happen. If you have pride in your work, then it's definitely about being better than someone else. Maybe that's the fundamental difference.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #99
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Because many people are weak loosers, because the majority of people are dumb and prone to exploitation.
    Why dont we just take away all government laws and regulation and see what happens?
    Then unions will work with companies and regulate themselves. This is the way it should be.

    They were there for a reason in the first place, and there is a reason for this new law, which I have explained to you several times my opinions as to the reasons and even some of the stated reasons. If you want to know more I suggest you read up on it yourself.

    Europa - Search - Results
    Rapid - Press Releases - EUROPA
    Rapid - Press Releases - EUROPA
    These don't answer my questions at all. You still haven't told me why unions can not or individuals can not do this themselves.



    You, no, me, no, somebody yes.. Just because me and you don't need this doesn't mean other people do not, its meant as protection for the weak.. Example:
    Commission acts on excessive working time in Greece - EC
    Excuse me for not respecting the weak. Join a union or get a different job.



    Unions sucks, they dont cover all work, governments can cover ALL forms of work..
    Find me a profession that doesn't have a union. I can't think of one type of work that doesn't have a union.

    Why do we need unions exactly?
    To negotiate benefits for workers.

    Aside, I already told you unions have a weak position in many European countries.
    Why are they so weak? Because governments think they know what's best for the people and don't allow them to solve their own problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
    I never thought infanticide could be so delicious.

  10. #100
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    Re: UK work time opt-out under threat

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    Excuse me for not respecting the weak. Join a union or get a different job.
    So you are saying that you have no respect for your fellow man, since almost every single person is weak when it comes to a negotiation between company vs person??...............including yourself.. unless you are the company.

    Find me a profession that doesn't have a union. I can't think of one type of work that doesn't have a union.
    US President!

    Why are they so weak? Because governments think they know what's best for the people and don't allow them to solve their own problems.
    Wow, now that is just a warped wrong view of Europe.

    Being "weak" is a relative term, and I think Max does not make this clear enough (if he means it and he should).

    In a negotiation between a big ass company and a worker, the worker, like it or not, is the weak party. The company has the financial muster and the overall knowledge to exploit the worker and before unions most companies did so. An example, a company can claim "sorry we cant give you a raise because we are loosing money".. the worker has to take the companies word in most cases, because the worker does not have the resources or the schooling often, to know if that claim is correct or not. With a union, then you have that possibility.

    The idea of a union, or joining forces among workers, is to be in a stronger negotiating position against the strong part in the negotiation, aka the company.

    This law, was put in place to battle worker exploitation by companies and it has worked. If a person wants to work him or herself to death, fine go do it, nothing in Europe will prevent you in doing that. Have 2 jobs, or 3. I know many who work 12 hours a day for example, 6 days a week, but that is because they like their jobs and want to do so. But if a company told someone, you have to work 56 hours a week, including weekends, then this law (and similar) prevents companies from demanding this and using this as an excuse to get rid of the person... and it also makes sure that those that do accept to work longer, get compensated for their extra work.. something that was not always present before.

    And governments in Europe do not know or claim to know what is best for people, nor do they try to impose something on us. This idea that American's have about Europe is just wrong and totally false.

    The way we run our countries is not much different than how the US is run, with the exception we actually have transparency and accountability here. I can set up a business wherever and whenever I want. I can move where ever and when ever I want. I can choose my doctor and dentist. In fact I can not see anything radically different between Europe or America on how life "goes on".
    PeteEU

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