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US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

jujuman13

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BBC NEWS | Americas | US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

It seems that the Unions concerned would not agree to wages being cut to levels paid by other Auto manufacturers within the US.
Silly people, it is better to have a job that pays something than have no job at all.
When will they realize that the gravy days are over?
 
Link
BBC NEWS | Americas | US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

It seems that the Unions concerned would not agree to wages being cut to levels paid by other Auto manufacturers within the US.
Silly people, it is better to have a job that pays something than have no job at all.
When will they realize that the gravy days are over?

That's kinda what I thought. Less money or no money. I'd take less money and crunch my living expenses a bit.
 
By taking the less money they lose alot of sway with their members. No point in having to pay dues or deal with union officials when non-union workers at the other plants are making the same amount of cash, have good benefits, and have a good arbitration system.

Yes, you can have arbitration without having a union. But then, you're also more likely to get canned for negligance without a safety line. But then being one of those big bad mean conservatives I have no problem with that.


Ron Gettelfinger, UAW president
"I'm not sure exactly what we mean when we say bring wages in line... I think the men and women of the UAW, who have worked so hard to help these companies succeed, have made numerous concessions up to this point in time," Gettelfinger said. "And we should be given some recognition and some credit for that."

Hey Ron, got news for you. In the real world you get pat on the back for DOING YOUR JOB. It does not entitle you to hefty bonuses. Having to go on strike, aggresively negotiate, and blugeon a company for high pay rates than other more productive companies, and negotiate for LESS work does not show any "loyalty" to a company nor does it attribute to any "successes" of a company.

You can only bleed an animal for so much before it dies. I truly hope that if the board of directors for the Big 3 remove the CEO's that Ron gets kicked out of his job as well. Oh and bonus points for Obamamessiah worship thrown in there sir.
 
Well, the Unions have no one to blame but themselves when the people they are supposed to negotiate for are suddenly without incomes at all. This is going to be a tough pill for all the Union sympathizers to swallow.
 
I am reminded of that which happened in the British Auto industry.
There they had a man nicknamed Red Robbo, who almost single handed destroyed that industry by his ever increasing demands on the Company.
Naturally the workers had not the intelligence to see what was inevitable until it was too late.
The Company Bosses likewise were to blame in acceding to whatever he and his cronies demanded of them.
The British Government bailed the Company (British Leyland) out, after a number of owners the Company or whatever remained of it was sold to be honest, the British Government paid BMW to take it off their hands.
So awfully sordid to see a repeat and of all places to see it happening in the USA.
If anyone from Detroit reads this they should take note.
Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Subaru have never received or even requested bail out money. They actually do make profits.
The above company's make Auto's that people want, their goods are reasonably priced and are also made in the USA by American workers who are perfectly willing to give a fair day's work for a fair day's pay.
 
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There's no reason why the workers should have to pay for the errors caused by irresponsible capitalists. If the capitalists can't handle running the show then give them the boot.
 
Given the analysts done on the potential amounts that GM needs, this bailout would have only been the start, a drop in the bucket. Some estimates ran as high as $125 billion to keep GM alive.

The death of this bill ensures that we don't go down that path.

GM made bad decisions and now they are paying for it. I'd love to see Ford, Toyota and Honda eat up their market share.
 
There's no reason why the workers should have to pay for the errors caused by irresponsible capitalists. If the capitalists can't handle running the show then give them the boot.

The error was paying them so much that the company was uncompetitive. If they want to keep their jobs they'll take a pay cut.
 
Funny how the unions get the blame here, when in fact it was the Republicans that killed the deal.. oh well, welcome to a million+ new unemployed America and hundreds of billions in extra money need for them.
 
PeteEU, the Unions get part of the blame in this instance because they sought and forced a weakly managed Company to cede to their ridiculous demands.
They did this by using the threat of strike action.
While it is obviously the job of the Unions to obtain the best deal possible for their members it is also the Unions responsibility to know that the Company will not be harmed by these demands.
In effect the Unions have to realise that by excessive demands a Company will go bust, then they are not really defending their members jobs.

The Unions and their members are going to have to be realistic, either tone down their demands or lose their jobs.
Unemployment pay in the US is so completely unlike unemployment pay in the UK, in the US it does not continue endlessly, their is no Social Security payment after the Unemployment benefit runs out.
But then in the US we do not pay near $8.00 per gallon of fuel.
 
The Unions put far too heavy a burden on these companies. They were paying the highest wages and employee benefit packages around, stifling investment in innovation and production efficiency, which is essentially why the big lumbering, environmentally hazardous beasts these companies produced simply haven't sold. In contrast, European and Japanese car companies have good, cost-appropriate wages, have innovative cars and are better-placed to survive this than the Americans. Not all, mind you.

As for this: good, I say. The Union has royally ****ed themselves, here, because if the Big Three go in for Chapter 11 reorganisation the bankruptcy courts will just be more harsh on the employees than what the bail-out would have been.

Fools! Fools I tells thee!
 
PeteEU, the Unions get part of the blame in this instance because they sought and forced a weakly managed Company to cede to their ridiculous demands.
They did this by using the threat of strike action.
While it is obviously the job of the Unions to obtain the best deal possible for their members it is also the Unions responsibility to know that the Company will not be harmed by these demands.
In effect the Unions have to realise that by excessive demands a Company will go bust, then they are not really defending their members jobs.

The Unions and their members are going to have to be realistic, either tone down their demands or lose their jobs.
Unemployment pay in the US is so completely unlike unemployment pay in the UK, in the US it does not continue endlessly, their is no Social Security payment after the Unemployment benefit runs out.
But then in the US we do not pay near $8.00 per gallon of fuel.

Of course the unions get part of the blame, but they don't get all the blame, which is what I bet most conservatives will spin.

At least 50% of the blame must be put at the head of the companies themselves. Their crappy quality and conservative thinking of sticking to the past and not innovating. They should be allowed to fail, if it was not for the knock on effects....

Another 15% at the feet of Congress who were too weak to fight back against lobbying by the big 3 over decades. If Congress had not caved year after year on better fuel economy standards, then the big 3 would not be in this problem today.

Another 15% at the feet at US society as a whole. Your healthcare system sucks, and it is time to admit that it does. That the big 3 are burden by huge health care costs for its workers shows that the system is broken. Also your attitude to the car must change and that stupid excuse of "we live in a large country and hence we need to drive big ass cars" must die a horrible death.

The final 20% can be put on the Unions. Yes they have been greedy, even by European standards frankly. Should they have refused going down in wages? Depends on the demand by the Republicans... very little info in the article. I suspect that the Republicans saw a chance to finally hit the unions hard, and went all in demanding unrealistic cuts in wages and benefits... after all they are in a win win situation politically... for example demanding that they go down in wages to the same level as those given to similar workers in the southern states.. of course forgetting that the cost of living is also lower there, compared to up north... Now they can blame the Unions, their arch nemesis for the failure (which they are doing). If the Unions had accepted their demands, then they could claim they saved the industry while sticking to their outdated conservative ideology.

What is sad is that while the Republican politicians will probably get re-elected in their backward states on this, it will be on the back of a million plus "democratic" voters up north.. really shows the true face of conservatism.. no heart and no brain and especially not a pragmatic bone in the body.

I almost wish that this action will have a devastating impact on the US, as it would stick it to the conservative movement big time.. but unlike American Conservatives, I hope to god that the impact on the US economy and especially the people affected by this utter stupidity, will not be as bad as many experts have for seen. America does not deserve such pain yet again and especially not because American conservatives lack pragmatism and live in a lala world.
 
Funny how the unions get the blame here, when in fact it was the Republicans that killed the deal.. oh well, welcome to a million+ new unemployed America and hundreds of billions in extra money need for them.

The unions get the blame for hurting the companies' competiveness.
 
The unions get the blame for hurting the companies' competiveness.

What do you think has a bigger impact. That the wages are high or the product is crap?

And if you want "competitiveness" then slave labour is the way to go.
 
What do you think has a bigger impact. That the wages are high or the product is crap?
It's a mix of both. High wages force vehicle prices up so the company can't sell. If prices were lower those cars would be selling at a much higher level.

And if you want "competitiveness" then slave labour is the way to go.

Yes, because being paid the market rate for your job is slave labor:doh
 
Link
BBC NEWS | Americas | US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

It seems that the Unions concerned would not agree to wages being cut to levels paid by other Auto manufacturers within the US.
Silly people, it is better to have a job that pays something than have no job at all.
When will they realize that the gravy days are over?

I hope any future bailout fails, these companies and states need to quit holding their hands out for bailouts.
 
If prices were lower those cars would be selling at a much higher level.

I disagree with you there. Some of GM's cars are quite competitive, but they are crap. I for one would be willing to pay a little extra for American made if it wasn't so lousy.

It is the quality of the product and word of mouth that is hurting the company the worst. Bad decisions and bad directions.

Yes, I agree the unions do get some of the blame, but definitely not the majority of it.

The problem is that the union leaders and the corporate leaders are not the ones to ever pay the price for their bad decisions and that is wrong.
 
I disagree with you there. Some of GM's cars are quite competitive, but they are crap. I for one would be willing to pay a little extra for American made if it wasn't so lousy.

It is the quality of the product and word of mouth that is hurting the company the worst. Bad decisions and bad directions.

Yes, I agree the unions do get some of the blame, but definitely not the majority of it.

The problem is that the union leaders and the corporate leaders are not the ones to ever pay the price for their bad decisions and that is wrong.

Buick is #1 in China. I think they are building good cars these days after years of making crappy ones.
 
Buick is #1 in China. I think they are building good cars these days after years of making crappy ones.

You might be right there, but again word of mouth for so many bad years has hurt these companies.

It might be best to let them shut down and maybe restart under new leadership and a new name IMO.
 
I disagree with you there. Some of GM's cars are quite competitive, but they are crap. I for one would be willing to pay a little extra for American made if it wasn't so lousy.

It is the quality of the product and word of mouth that is hurting the company the worst. Bad decisions and bad directions.

Yes, I agree the unions do get some of the blame, but definitely not the majority of it.

The problem is that the union leaders and the corporate leaders are not the ones to ever pay the price for their bad decisions and that is wrong.



Wow!! I totally agree with you :cool: Who would've thought.....:2wave:
 
I know what it took for me to earn $26 per hour back when I was still working a few years ago. Many years of education, training, and experience!!
And yet an assembly line worker can go in right out of high school and earn more than people who spend years in education and training.
That isn't market supply and demand working, just union demands...and management weakness...
 
There are many reasons for high wages. The unions are one. Skyrocketing health insurance is another.

I don't think that the unions are the sole cause though. Why do they have to approve of a Congressional bailout? Bail out the automakers and let the union strike. I'll bet they'll find someone to fill their shoes. I'd rather see the union busted than the automakers.

The blue collar guy loses again. At least the white collar criminals got their safety net.
 
The unions get the blame for hurting the companies' competiveness.


There's plenty of blame to pass around, but I certainly wouldn't put the unions at the top of the list. Nary a bitch I've hear about the executives and CEOs of the NA big 3 who collected millions upon millions of dollars of salary and bonuses for doing the absolute worse job imaginable. If the workers were making them that poor, how do you explain this bonus trough?
 
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There's plenty of blame to pass around, but I certainly wouldn't put the unions at the top of the list. Nary a bitch I've hear about the executives and CEOs of the NA big 3 who collected millions upon millions of dollars of salary and bonuses for doing the absolute worse job imaginable. If the workers were making them that poor, how do you explain this bonus trough?

I can agree that the Big 3 are horribly managed. Hopefully Chapter 11 will allow them to deal with their management troubles as well as their union troubles.
 
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