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Thread: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    The few CEO's that get those huge bonuses don't add up to the total cost of labor and their required benefits. Not even close. Lets not forget that "labor" includes those that don't work their either and I don't just mean "pensioners". A single plant even without its current auxilliaries, pensioners, and poolee's blow those bonuses waaaay out of the water. I know its easy to beat up on the CEO's being big bad money grubbers but the sacrosanct "Labor" is going to have to take their BIG share of this mess as well.
    Please back that up with hard facts. I'm interested.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Link
    BBC NEWS | Americas | US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    It seems that the Unions concerned would not agree to wages being cut to levels paid by other Auto manufacturers within the US.
    Silly people, it is better to have a job that pays something than have no job at all.
    When will they realize that the gravy days are over?
    Here is the problem I have with that:

    1) GOP wants to cut wages and destroy the UAW.

    2) GOP voted to give welfare queen bankers everything they wanted. No pay cuts for them.

    Where is the consistency, or is it is a fact that the GOP doesn't like auto workers but loves bankers?
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    I was looking at homes in Detroit to see what these workers have to pay.

    The houses are like free!

    There are lots and lots of houses for sale for less than $30,000. I'm not talking about $30,000 homes, I'm talking about $120,000 homes selling for $30,000.

    It seems like a good place to go open a factory. Your employees would be able to buy cheap housing.

    Is that right?

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by sazerac View Post
    I was looking at homes in Detroit to see what these workers have to pay.

    The houses are like free!

    There are lots and lots of houses for sale for less than $30,000. I'm not talking about $30,000 homes, I'm talking about $120,000 homes selling for $30,000.

    It seems like a good place to go open a factory. Your employees would be able to buy cheap housing.

    Is that right?
    The houses are going for $30,000 but the bars on your windows cost an extra $80,000.
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Please back that up with hard facts. I'm interested.
    Chief Executive Richard Wagoner
    $1.6 million salary original plan to increase to 2.2 did not go through
    Estimated annual health and dental care family plan: $14,000

    $1.8 million in non-equity incentive bonuses. Since GM posted a loss he doesn't get it though.
    Another $3.3 million in estimated expenses. Most of which are travel (estimated cost on all vehicles jets included), security, and insurance.

    Those costs are always added into the mix when it comes to reporting time.

    Vice Executive Ray Young
    $900,000 salary
    Same health care plan

    Another 946,000 incentive bonus. Since GM posted a loss he doesn't get it.
    Similar expenses.

    Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson

    $1.8 million salary
    Same expenses as above minus the incentive package.
    Same health care plan

    *note: attempting to throw in estimated stock options and signing bonuses is disengenious as they are a one time payment and non-reoccurring. We're a debate forum, not a CNN ratings whore. Any additonal options are purchased through their own stock purchase plan which is available to ALL GM employees...even the janitors.

    Janesville GM Plant in Wisconsin

    Approx. # of workers at full production (mid Jan. of this year) approx. 2,200.
    Estimated cost of ACTIVE labor (salary and benefits): $325 million....FOR ONE PLANT.


    Total loss by posting of this year. $38.7 Billion....yes with a B..BILLION


    Do I get a cookie now?
    Last edited by Keorythe; 12-13-08 at 01:27 AM.
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Here is the problem I have with that:

    1) GOP wants to cut wages and destroy the UAW.

    2) GOP voted to give welfare queen bankers everything they wanted. No pay cuts for them.

    Where is the consistency, or is it is a fact that the GOP doesn't like auto workers but loves bankers?
    1) Cut salaries and benefits yes. Those costs are part of the immediate problem. Destroy the UAW? Hardly. Opposing anti-secret ballot legislation is a good thing. Letting the UAW know that they don't own the plants is a darn good thing!

    2) Wages and labor even for the top execs isn't an issue to the Wall Street bailout. Heck you could pay every single worker there $1 for the next 10 years and it still wouldn't affect Wall Street at all.


    Thats funny. After looking at the voting record I can see the GOP isn't alone in the Wall Street bailout (thats a pretty HUGE number of Dems voting for it) and almost caved in to the US carmaker bailout. That "almost" was pretty much crushed by one entity..the UAW.

    Just wanted to point that out...you know..so you won't forget the Dems hold Congress...like for how many years now?
    Last edited by Keorythe; 12-13-08 at 01:39 AM.
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Chief Executive Richard Wagoner
    $1.6 million salary original plan to increase to 2.2 did not go through
    Estimated annual health and dental care family plan: $14,000

    $1.8 million in non-equity incentive bonuses. Since GM posted a loss he doesn't get it though.
    Another $3.3 million in estimated expenses. Most of which are travel (estimated cost on all vehicles jets included), security, and insurance.

    Those costs are always added into the mix when it comes to reporting time.

    Vice Executive Ray Young
    $900,000 salary
    Same health care plan

    Another 946,000 incentive bonus. Since GM posted a loss he doesn't get it.
    Similar expenses.

    Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson

    $1.8 million salary
    Same expenses as above minus the incentive package.
    Same health care plan

    *note: attempting to throw in estimated stock options and signing bonuses is disengenious as they are a one time payment and non-reoccurring. We're a debate forum, not a CNN ratings whore. Any additonal options are purchased through their own stock purchase plan which is available to ALL GM employees...even the janitors.

    Janesville GM Plant in Wisconsin

    Approx. # of workers at full production (mid Jan. of this year) approx. 2,200.
    Estimated cost of ACTIVE labor (salary and benefits): $325 million....FOR ONE PLANT.


    Total loss by posting of this year. $38.7 Billion....yes with a B..BILLION


    Do I get a cookie now?

    No cookie, unfortunately. You didn't post any links, and your information does not match what I found:


    NOVEMBER 18, 2008, 12:33 P.M. ET
    GM, Ford May Set Up Caps on Executive Pay
    By MATTHEW DOLAN

    The chief executives of Detroit's Big Three auto makers appearing before Congress today don't make the kind of money that Wall Street bosses pull down, but they could still face tough questions about executive compensation.

    The legislation under consideration by the Senate would require the government to bar bonuses for executives making more than $250,000. The bill in the House of Representatives has similar provisions for those companies receiving loans, demanding no bonuses to employees making more than $200,000, no "golden parachutes" payouts to fleeing executives and "no compensation plan that could encourage manipulation of reported earnings to enhance compensation."

    Spokesmen at Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp. said their companies are still reviewing the bills released Monday night but added that the auto makers are already taking steps themselves that would effectively institute similar kinds of caps.

    This afternoon, the auto companies' CEOs will be testifying in favor of a $25 billion, government-backed loan program designed to help the ailing auto makers weather a global credit crunch and sharp downturn in auto sales.

    In previous bailouts in the financial sector, executive compensation has been a sore point for congressional members and taxpayers who questioned giant pay packages for leaders of failing companies.

    Although GM has been losing money since 2005, CEO Rick Wagoner got a salary increase this year. At Ford, Chief Executive Alan Mulally has come under fire for a rich pay package even though the company is losing money and pulled back from a pledge to return to profitability next year.

    Less is known about Robert Nardelli's CEO package at Chrysler LLC because the auto maker is privately held.

    The Securities and Exchange Commission filings reported earlier this year that gave Mr. Wagoner, the company's chairman and chief executive, a 33% raise for 2008 and equity compensation of at least $1.68 million for his performance in 2007, a year for which the auto maker reported a loss of $38.7 billion. The salary increase puts Mr. Wagoner's salary for this year at $2.2 million, compared with $1.65 million in 2007.

    GM, Ford May Set Up Caps on Executive Pay - WSJ.com


    Is a pay raise normal when a CEO drives ('scuse the play on words) a company in the red?

    Yeah, they do pay their workers well at Ford, GM and Chrysler. But I can't fathom why it's the little guy that gets the blame here as there is plenty to go around.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Here is the problem I have with that:

    1) GOP wants to cut wages and destroy the UAW.

    2) GOP voted to give welfare queen bankers everything they wanted. No pay cuts for them.

    Where is the consistency, or is it is a fact that the GOP doesn't like auto workers but loves bankers?
    Weak, and sadly, so.

    I dont recall labor costs being an issue within the finance industry, where labor costs-- wages, benefits and pensions -- have often been an issue in the auto industry.

    Why do you believe the unions should be unwilling to grant concessions in order to keep the jobs they represent?

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Yeah, they do pay their workers well at Ford, GM and Chrysler. But I can't fathom why it's the little guy that gets the blame here as there is plenty to go around.
    What % of the big 3 payroll (inc benefits) goes to the CEOs?
    What % of the payroll (inc benefits) goes to UAW workers?

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    What % of the big 3 payroll (inc benefits) goes to the CEOs?
    What % of the payroll (inc benefits) goes to UAW workers?

    Do any of the union employees make $11,000 an hour? Richard Wagoner does. So if your beef is about misappropriation of pay, you can start at the top.

    As for the bull $70 hr., this is how the figure came that way:

    But then what's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages--again, $24 per hour--and you get the $70 figure. Voila.

    Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. (Talk about gold-plated coverage!) Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that--probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees--in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.

    Pretty misleading, no?

    Now tell me Goobieman, if there was universal helthcare in the US, do you think that would help the big 3?
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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