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Thread: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

  1. #71
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    I see.
    Well, since you wont explain it, I won't cosnider it with any degree of seriousness.
    Like I said before, the krux of the discussion is surplus value; me explaining Marxist economics would probably take a little while and would derail the entire thread, so I just posted what is relevant.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Like I said before, the krux of the discussion is surplus value; me explaining Marxist economics would probably take a little while and would derail the entire thread, so I just posted what is relevant.
    The cruix of the discussion is unions not willing to accept the idea that they do not get to set the value of their labor*; rather, the value of their labor is set by the labor market as a whole.

    Globalizing markets creates a larger labor market which then drives up competition; as a function of that, wages fall.
    Reality trumps ideology and force of will.


    * I guess I should be more clear:
    They CAN set the value of their labor in saying they are not willing to work for less than X. However, no one has to employ them at that rate, so...
    Last edited by Goobieman; 12-12-08 at 02:07 PM.

  3. #73
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    Are you trying to assert that the work of someone on an assembly line is as important as the work of a CEO?
    IMO, I think someone on the assembly line is just as, if not more, important than the work of a CEO. They (the assembly line) are the backbone of a company and without that, it would fold over. Most CEO's these days seem more interested in building up their own bank account than building up their company.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I don't get what your arguing here. I said the cost per employee, not the hourly wage. And if thats the cost per employee, then it still counts as putting them at a disadvantage marketwise.
    Jeepers, you can't click on the link? You must be a union emoployee.

    Edited to add: As well as the original link, there is also this:

    The Return of the $70 Per Hour Meme - Finance Blog - Felix Salmon - Market Movers - Portfolio.com
    Last edited by Middleground; 12-12-08 at 02:33 PM.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    IMO, I think someone on the assembly line is just as, if not more, important than the work of a CEO. They (the assembly line) are the backbone of a company and without that, it would fold over. Most CEO's these days seem more interested in building up their own bank account than building up their company.
    Although I couldn't agree any more with the last sentence, the role of the CEO is most important, IMO. Although I will say that a hierarchy of importance has little value, as everyone in a company plays an important role. However, the CEOs are responsible for making the right decisions in leading a company to profitability and success. The current big 3 CEOs and their executive teams are certainly not Lee Iacoccas. In fact, they have been total disasters. It's beyond me why they were deserving of multi-million bonuses besides their inflated salaries. And it has yet to be answered, but asked a few times: if any of the big 3 were losing profitiability because of their union workers, how could they afford all of those incredibly-inflated and ginormous executive bonuses? We are talking millions upon millions of dollars here, not free passes to the movies.

    Where's the outrage????
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Jeepers, you can't click on the link? You must be a union emoployee.
    Silly me, I figured you quoted the pertinent information...
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Silly me, I figured you quoted the pertinent information...
    I quoted some pertinant information, but didn't want to break DP rules by posting the whole article. I KNOW you would have infracted me on that.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I quoted some pertinant information, but didn't want to break DP rules by posting the whole article. I KNOW you would have infracted me on that.
    Well if you had quoted information that was contrary to my position, I may have bothered to check out the link. Why would I research something I thought I had already pointed out?

    And yes I would have infracted you, because you are in good need of a spanking lately.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    And yes I would have infracted you, because you are in good need of a spanking lately.
    Well crap, if I would have known that, I would have posted the whole article, along with all of the webpage ads, just to be extra naughty.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

  10. #80
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    Funny how the unions get the blame here, when in fact it was the Republicans that killed the deal.. oh well, welcome to a million+ new unemployed America and hundreds of billions in extra money need for them.
    Yes, Republicans did kill the deal. Thank goodness they did. They killed it when the UAW wouldn't budge on several critical issues. Republicans were stunned by the UAW's arrogance in not willing to go to the table. They seem to think that they can treat this like a regular Union deal and not the major catastrophe that this really has become. They won't have the option to go on strike.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    That depends on what perspective you approach the question from. From the perspective of a capitalist, yes, the job of a CEO, that is to increase revenue, is necessary, as is the entire bureaucracy of management. Of course, it should be obvious that I'm not concerned with maximizing revenue.
    Revenue is the reason to have a business. A business is there to make money for its owners and/or shareholders. You can argue Soviet economics, and I can point to its version of "tax" (more like direct cash infusion to the coffers).

    In the process of the sustainability of human society through production, their job is utterly unnecessary, as it has been historically shown many times that workers are capable (in fact, more so, as generally when factories are appropriated by its workers their productivity increases) of self-management.
    Whoa there buddy. That Marxist stuff looks great on paper..but thats still paper and this is the real world, not the university. If you're going to try and claim history then lets see your documentation or are you attempting to use pre-industrial rural examples?


    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Union agitation isn't driving the company to bankruptcy. Poor economic planning, a massive bureaucracy of management, and paying ridiculous amounts of money to their upper- and mid-level management is.
    There's plenty of blame to pass around, but I certainly wouldn't put the unions at the top of the list. Nary a bitch I've hear about the executives and CEOs of the NA big 3 who collected millions upon millions of dollars of salary and bonuses for doing the absolute worse job imaginable. If the workers were making them that poor, how do you explain this bonus trough?

    The few CEO's that get those huge bonuses don't add up to the total cost of labor and their required benefits. Not even close. Lets not forget that "labor" includes those that don't work their either and I don't just mean "pensioners". A single plant even without its current auxilliaries, pensioners, and poolee's blow those bonuses waaaay out of the water. I know its easy to beat up on the CEO's being big bad money grubbers but the sacrosanct "Labor" is going to have to take their BIG share of this mess as well.

    Outrage? Yeah if I was a shareholder I would be outraged and would be asking for their resignations with no severance packages. But I'm not a shareholder so I can only be outraged that they're asking for my tax dollars. Shareholders recieve all of those nice business spam letters (they're actually important) for a reason.
    Last edited by Keorythe; 12-12-08 at 04:58 PM.
    Freedom is... never more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or its gone and gone for a long, long time- Ronald Reagan

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