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Thread: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    PeteEU, the Unions get part of the blame in this instance because they sought and forced a weakly managed Company to cede to their ridiculous demands.
    They did this by using the threat of strike action.
    While it is obviously the job of the Unions to obtain the best deal possible for their members it is also the Unions responsibility to know that the Company will not be harmed by these demands.
    In effect the Unions have to realise that by excessive demands a Company will go bust, then they are not really defending their members jobs.

    The Unions and their members are going to have to be realistic, either tone down their demands or lose their jobs.
    Unemployment pay in the US is so completely unlike unemployment pay in the UK, in the US it does not continue endlessly, their is no Social Security payment after the Unemployment benefit runs out.
    But then in the US we do not pay near $8.00 per gallon of fuel.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    The Unions put far too heavy a burden on these companies. They were paying the highest wages and employee benefit packages around, stifling investment in innovation and production efficiency, which is essentially why the big lumbering, environmentally hazardous beasts these companies produced simply haven't sold. In contrast, European and Japanese car companies have good, cost-appropriate wages, have innovative cars and are better-placed to survive this than the Americans. Not all, mind you.

    As for this: good, I say. The Union has royally ****ed themselves, here, because if the Big Three go in for Chapter 11 reorganisation the bankruptcy courts will just be more harsh on the employees than what the bail-out would have been.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    PeteEU, the Unions get part of the blame in this instance because they sought and forced a weakly managed Company to cede to their ridiculous demands.
    They did this by using the threat of strike action.
    While it is obviously the job of the Unions to obtain the best deal possible for their members it is also the Unions responsibility to know that the Company will not be harmed by these demands.
    In effect the Unions have to realise that by excessive demands a Company will go bust, then they are not really defending their members jobs.

    The Unions and their members are going to have to be realistic, either tone down their demands or lose their jobs.
    Unemployment pay in the US is so completely unlike unemployment pay in the UK, in the US it does not continue endlessly, their is no Social Security payment after the Unemployment benefit runs out.
    But then in the US we do not pay near $8.00 per gallon of fuel.
    Of course the unions get part of the blame, but they don't get all the blame, which is what I bet most conservatives will spin.

    At least 50% of the blame must be put at the head of the companies themselves. Their crappy quality and conservative thinking of sticking to the past and not innovating. They should be allowed to fail, if it was not for the knock on effects....

    Another 15% at the feet of Congress who were too weak to fight back against lobbying by the big 3 over decades. If Congress had not caved year after year on better fuel economy standards, then the big 3 would not be in this problem today.

    Another 15% at the feet at US society as a whole. Your healthcare system sucks, and it is time to admit that it does. That the big 3 are burden by huge health care costs for its workers shows that the system is broken. Also your attitude to the car must change and that stupid excuse of "we live in a large country and hence we need to drive big ass cars" must die a horrible death.

    The final 20% can be put on the Unions. Yes they have been greedy, even by European standards frankly. Should they have refused going down in wages? Depends on the demand by the Republicans... very little info in the article. I suspect that the Republicans saw a chance to finally hit the unions hard, and went all in demanding unrealistic cuts in wages and benefits... after all they are in a win win situation politically... for example demanding that they go down in wages to the same level as those given to similar workers in the southern states.. of course forgetting that the cost of living is also lower there, compared to up north... Now they can blame the Unions, their arch nemesis for the failure (which they are doing). If the Unions had accepted their demands, then they could claim they saved the industry while sticking to their outdated conservative ideology.

    What is sad is that while the Republican politicians will probably get re-elected in their backward states on this, it will be on the back of a million plus "democratic" voters up north.. really shows the true face of conservatism.. no heart and no brain and especially not a pragmatic bone in the body.

    I almost wish that this action will have a devastating impact on the US, as it would stick it to the conservative movement big time.. but unlike American Conservatives, I hope to god that the impact on the US economy and especially the people affected by this utter stupidity, will not be as bad as many experts have for seen. America does not deserve such pain yet again and especially not because American conservatives lack pragmatism and live in a lala world.
    PeteEU

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Funny how the unions get the blame here, when in fact it was the Republicans that killed the deal.. oh well, welcome to a million+ new unemployed America and hundreds of billions in extra money need for them.
    The unions get the blame for hurting the companies' competiveness.
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    The unions get the blame for hurting the companies' competiveness.
    What do you think has a bigger impact. That the wages are high or the product is crap?

    And if you want "competitiveness" then slave labour is the way to go.
    PeteEU

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    What do you think has a bigger impact. That the wages are high or the product is crap?
    It's a mix of both. High wages force vehicle prices up so the company can't sell. If prices were lower those cars would be selling at a much higher level.

    And if you want "competitiveness" then slave labour is the way to go.
    Yes, because being paid the market rate for your job is slave labor
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
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    BBC NEWS | Americas | US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    It seems that the Unions concerned would not agree to wages being cut to levels paid by other Auto manufacturers within the US.
    Silly people, it is better to have a job that pays something than have no job at all.
    When will they realize that the gravy days are over?
    I hope any future bailout fails, these companies and states need to quit holding their hands out for bailouts.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    If prices were lower those cars would be selling at a much higher level.
    I disagree with you there. Some of GM's cars are quite competitive, but they are crap. I for one would be willing to pay a little extra for American made if it wasn't so lousy.

    It is the quality of the product and word of mouth that is hurting the company the worst. Bad decisions and bad directions.

    Yes, I agree the unions do get some of the blame, but definitely not the majority of it.

    The problem is that the union leaders and the corporate leaders are not the ones to ever pay the price for their bad decisions and that is wrong.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I disagree with you there. Some of GM's cars are quite competitive, but they are crap. I for one would be willing to pay a little extra for American made if it wasn't so lousy.

    It is the quality of the product and word of mouth that is hurting the company the worst. Bad decisions and bad directions.

    Yes, I agree the unions do get some of the blame, but definitely not the majority of it.

    The problem is that the union leaders and the corporate leaders are not the ones to ever pay the price for their bad decisions and that is wrong.
    Buick is #1 in China. I think they are building good cars these days after years of making crappy ones.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Buick is #1 in China. I think they are building good cars these days after years of making crappy ones.
    You might be right there, but again word of mouth for so many bad years has hurt these companies.

    It might be best to let them shut down and maybe restart under new leadership and a new name IMO.

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