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Thread: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    As I understand it, one of the main reasons Republicans doomed this bailout is because the supposed "Car Czar" position had been denuded in the legislation. It amounted to a title position only with no power to initiate industry reforms or veto poor company decisions. Window dressing.

    אשכנזי היהודי Белый Россию

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Link
    BBC NEWS | Americas | US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    It seems that the Unions concerned would not agree to wages being cut to levels paid by other Auto manufacturers within the US.
    Silly people, it is better to have a job that pays something than have no job at all.
    When will they realize that the gravy days are over?
    Yeah, we should lower the compensation of workers, that's the best answer for society. Conservatives won't be happy until there is no middle class and only the lower class serving the upper class. Flip my burger and mow my lawn you peon, I was lucky enough to go to college so I deserve better than you. Conservatives won't be happy until blue collar workers in this country are paid as little as other third world or oppressive countries.

    I don't think any of the bail outs should happen. Not because I have some fantasy about the "free market" but because I believe we need to have a big ****ing meltdown so that people will recognize that the conservative model of laissez faire economics and Reaganomics has brought nothing but trouble to our country. When all those republicans lose their jobs maybe then they will stop voting republican.

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    Cool Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Where is the consistency, or is it is a fact that the GOP doesn't like auto workers but loves bankers?
    Comrade I now believe it is a fact that the Republicans in Congress are all EVIL, and every last one should be expelled. They would bail out usurers while not wanting a law or Congressional goal to the FED to prevent more than 36% debt to income ratio. 38%? Where did that come from? {see link} They are as dumb as Hannity for not being able to read consistent "with the safe and sound operation." They prefer debt given by usurers who think a National Treasure Sweepstakes debt hidden in the attic is funny. And when the equity of a lifetime is not there for the taking after the fracking, in an economic downturn due to high gas prices and burning cornbread to go zoom, they bail the bastard usurers out.

    [2.280] And if (the debtor) is in straitness, then let there be postponement until (he is in) ease; and that you remit (it) as alms is better for you, if you knew.

    I have had enough of the Republicans in Congress.

    The EVIL Republicans in Congress want responsible business by decreasing the wages of hourly workers gained by contract, for socialism, but try to get knowledge and consent before a usurer fornicates in your household behind your back, for more than 36% debt to income ratio and a mortgage crisis, and the Republicans know nothing, see nothing...


    The Republicans in Congress can go to hell; EAT THIS YOU STINKING BASTARDS:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-par...post1057840083

    Republicans hate worker's contracts, in good faith, but love usurers fornicating in our households behind our backs.

    I FART ON THE STINKING REPUBLICANS.

  4. #94
    Advisor Keorythe's Avatar
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    No cookie, unfortunately. You didn't post any links, and your information does not match what I found:

    The Securities and Exchange Commission filings reported earlier this year that gave Mr. Wagoner, the company's chairman and chief executive, a 33% raise for 2008 and equity compensation of at least $1.68 million

    The salary increase puts Mr. Wagoner's salary for this year at $2.2 million, compared with $1.65 million in 2007.
    Actually, your info does match what mine was. Yours is pretty much unresearched, included equity compensation (its really non-equity) which is mentioned in my more detailed info, and is still in the same ballpark. You can play with numbers by adding in stock options or signing bonuses (also mentioned) to come up with slightly different numbers depending on who's reporting the info.

    Yeah, they do pay their workers well at Ford, GM and Chrysler. But I can't fathom why it's the little guy that gets the blame here as there is plenty to go around.
    $24 per hour is the STARTING pay on a GM line worker. Veterens can make up to $37 an hour in lower paying states. But lets play ball here. We'll strip everything from the equation. No overtime, no benefits, not bonuses, no nothing and stick with the lowest of the low pay.

    24 x 40 (no overtime) x4 x 12 = 46,080 a year. Hmm kinda low. Now lets multiply that 2,200. Hmm, my math says 101 million for one plant. Start adding benefits, pensions, overtime, well you get the point. Labor is the largest overhead cost to production for anything. On top of that labor is also the easiest to replace.

    Why are the "little guys" the bad guys? Simple, we pay sooo much for a job that can be outsourced to cheaper countries and still get the same in terms of productivity and quality. And they want more pay and benefits for less work. You'll notice that America isn't exactly that sympathetic to the UAW these days. You can only bleed an animal so much before it becomes too weak and dies. And its ironic that they heavily support a party who's multicultural views directly conflict with the nationalistic sympathy that they feed off to keep the companies going. Support your country, buy American cars! Nah, I'll stick with a Toyota.
    Freedom is... never more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or its gone and gone for a long, long time- Ronald Reagan

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    Advisor Keorythe's Avatar
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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineComedy View Post
    Comrade I now believe it is a fact that the Republicans in Congress are all EVIL, and every last one should be expelled.

    I have had enough of the Republicans in Congress.

    Republicans hate worker's contracts, in good faith, but love usurers fornicating in our households behind our backs.
    Comrade, put the appropriate blame on the appropriate people. This is all of Congress and not just the Republicans. I understand that your fevor has blinded you to the voting decisions of the Democrats in the past...and present but we can clarify this for you if need be. I too hate the republicans. Mostly though for their lack of action on the Democrat installed policies and incompetance by trying to be bipartisan when that is not why we voted for them in the first place. I say we kick them all out...or at least hold the appropriate people accountable.

    Ah but Comrade, contracts are negotiated and therefore apt to be renegociated when trying to keep the business running. Even Marxist theory allows and to a point asks for just that. Good faith isn't exactly what I would call some of those contract methods though. Threatening "scabs" that come to replace union workers with violence is hardly in good sport.
    Freedom is... never more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or its gone and gone for a long, long time- Ronald Reagan

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Actually, your info does match what mine was. Yours is pretty much unresearched, included equity compensation (its really non-equity) which is mentioned in my more detailed info, and is still in the same ballpark. You can play with numbers by adding in stock options or signing bonuses (also mentioned) to come up with slightly different numbers depending on who's reporting the info.
    It's amazing to me how you seem to be so okay with this. Here's a CEO that makes $11,000 an hour (with benefits), who managed the company to a 36 billion dollar deficit in 2007. That's a full year salary for 157 assembly-line workers (at the inflated rate of $70 hr!). You okay with this? Is a CEO really worth that much more, especially one who's doing a lousy job? I think it was Roosevelt who said that the gap between salaries should not exceed 15-1. My math is terrible, but even I can figure out that the GM, Ford and Chrysler gap is a much higher rate than that. If they're going to clean up and start making themselves profitable companies once again, they should start at the top.

    $24 per hour is the STARTING pay on a GM line worker. Veterens can make up to $37 an hour in lower paying states. But lets play ball here. We'll strip everything from the equation. No overtime, no benefits, not bonuses, no nothing and stick with the lowest of the low pay.
    Please provide a link, as from what I've seen so far, those number are NOT accurate. At least since 2007, new assembly-line workers make $12-15 hr, with less benefits. Do you want that trend to go even lower, so Americans can compete with the Chinese? Is that the America you envision... a small percentage of very rich people and no middle-class?

    General Motors Hourly Pay - Glassdoor.com

    From The New Republic:

    Let's start with the fact that it's not $70 per hour in wages. According to Kristin Dziczek of the Center for Automative Research--who was my primary source for the figures you are about to read--average wages for workers at Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors were just $28 per hour as of 2007. That works out to a little less than $60,000 a year in gross income--hardly outrageous, particularly when you consider the physical demands of automobile assembly work and the skills most workers must acquire over the course of their careers.

    Assembly Line


    Why are the "little guys" the bad guys? Simple, we pay sooo much for a job that can be outsourced to cheaper countries and still get the same in terms of productivity and quality. And they want more pay and benefits for less work.
    You want the US to become China? Is that what you want? How about this... how about build better cars that people want, and limit the number of cheap labour imports? How 'bout them apples?


    You'll notice that America isn't exactly that sympathetic to the UAW these days.
    That is because people are being misinformed.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Cool Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    I understand that your fevor has blinded you to the voting decisions of the Democrats in the past...and present but we can clarify this for you if need be. I too hate the republicans. Mostly though for their lack of action on the Democrat installed policies and incompetance by trying to be bipartisan when that is not why we voted for them in the first place. I say we kick them all out...or at least hold the appropriate people accountable.

    Ah but Comrade, contracts are negotiated and therefore apt to be renegociated when trying to keep the business running. Even Marxist theory allows and to a point asks for just that. Good faith isn't exactly what I would call some of those contract methods though. Threatening "scabs" that come to replace union workers with violence is hardly in good sport.
    To be consistent, which is what I was responding to with regard to danarhea's post, in 2005 I would have said, "I do not want to be bailed out like Chrysler..."

    It is easy to find that topic of mine, it is about Democrats and Debt. The topic is narrow, because it is personal, but the overall problem was not so narrow.

    On page one of the topic I quoted Democrats; Please, these quotes are very important:

    "Average family debt is higher than ever. And as they lose the struggle to make ends meet, one out of every seven middle class families may be bankrupt by the end of the decade.

    "And over time, fiscal discipline saves families thousands of dollars on their mortgages and credit cards.


    The solution the Democrats had to prevent that bankruptcy was not any goal to the FED (the job of Congress) for less than 50% debt to income ratio, where Greenspan had it set for unsound banking practices, which would have prevented little ACORNS from having 4000 square foot houses in upscale hoods while driving a truck, their solution was just to have "fiscal discipline." {said like Peter Lorre, who you can imagine as a bank clerk http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000048/}

    How exactly would that work? Even with fiscal discipline by the Bush administration and the Republican Congress, the black in the hood up in DeKalb County would still be living in too big a house with no furniture with debt more than twice their income during good times. How is it not a time bomb!

    Think about this for a minute. The Democrats are not stupid. The Democrats knew the only way to avoid a problem with the bad Community Reinvestment mortgages was to maintain good times. They knew the middle class families were struggling to make ends meet. They knew credit cards have to be figured into debt to income ratios with regard to the mortgages they knew were bad. Knowing what they knew, instead of making businesses give safe and sound debt to income ratios, it looks to me like they wanted fiscal discipline for the anticipated bail out

    *****

    When the boss is looking for stuff to be signed off, so he will look good getting in under budget before Christmas, and the inspector on the line is dragging his feet for the one whose name is at the very top of the list on the public bulletin board of those not in the union, the only choice is to join the union so you can consistently keep the boss happy. I do NOT want to talk about the unions even in this topic, because the problem causing all this is more than that.

    *****

    What if there had been no rise in gas prices or other rise in food costs from burning feed corn to push the 2005 "one out of every seven middle class families" over the edge? Would the auto industry have this problem now? Would the big head on Fox have changed his tune? No need to discuss the ticking time bomb of the the union wages, or the horrible Corporate Average Fuel Economy being the reason why people prefer foreign economy cars when gas prices go up.

    What I want to see is reasonable laws to try and prevent bailouts. Fiscal discipline is good to have for bad things you cannot predict, but a good law is better for preventing those things you can predict.

    Comrade, if Republicans cannot do those reasonable laws, and their only solution is to bail or let die like a Libertarian in a Dickens novel, this Republican might as well cut the Democrats some slack.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    $24 per hour is the STARTING pay on a GM line worker. Veterens can make up to $37 an hour in lower paying states. But lets play ball here. We'll strip everything from the equation. No overtime, no benefits, not bonuses, no nothing and stick with the lowest of the low pay.
    Wow a whopping $37/hr? THAT'S OUTRAGEOUS!! I can see why you conservatives are so upset, I mean, that's a lot of money to pay someone so that they can house, feed, clothe and educate their family... maybe putting a little something away for vacations and retirement and maybe a little to pass on to their kids in the end. I had no idea there were people making that kind of loot for playing bingo or fishing or whatever it is this month that ALL union workers got caught doing instead of working. I wonder how many conservatives who post here during working hours do so on their break instead of while they should be working... They must be conservatives forced into union jobs because we know it's only union workers who **** off during working hours... but I digress.

    Why are the "little guys" the bad guys? Simple, we pay sooo much for a job that can be outsourced to cheaper countries and still get the same in terms of productivity and quality. And they want more pay and benefits for less work.
    Right, like I said earlier we need to be lowering the standard of living of American workers to that of the Chinese or some other 3rd world country. Why should average Americans be so privileged? And talk about quality, eh, what's a little melamine in our baby food, candy, pet food et al., I mean you can go to any Wal-Mart and see the high quality of goods you can get on the cheap. So what if moving jobs overseas so that CEOs, Board of Directors and shareholders can make more money for themselves hurts the peon workers and their families and undermines the foundation of prosperity in our society, we really only want the rich to succeed anyway because they deserve it more. Sure there will be some lucky bastards who are able to make it from the bottom to the top but that will end too if we can just keep the populace poor enough. After all, we can't have the rabble reaching the upper crust and spoiling things with their crude and unrefined ways. Frankly, I think we should move to the feudal system anyway.

    You'll notice that America isn't exactly that sympathetic to the UAW these days. You can only bleed an animal so much before it becomes too weak and dies.
    That's not because people like you say it at every opportunity is it? I'm not sure how I feel about union workers so please tell me another story about lazy union workers getting over on their companies so that I can figure it out. In the second sentence above, were you talking about CEOs, board members and shareholders?

    And its ironic that they heavily support a party who's multicultural views directly conflict with the nationalistic sympathy that they feed off to keep the companies going. Support your country, buy American cars! Nah, I'll stick with a Toyota.
    I don't really even know what you mean by that. Nationalistic sympathy, do you mean that democrats think we should be paying American workers more than workers in other countries because we are the shining light on the hill, the hopeful nation, the land of prosperity, the place where other people want to go for opportunity and a better life? No, you certainly can't be talking about that because you want our wages and standard of living to be like those other countries. And multicultural? Oh you mean those lesser races. Yeah, we want to pay them even less than the chosen race, right?
    [/colbert]
    When I think of organized labor I hear the mantra "a rising tide lifts all boats" but it seems like republicans only want the yachts to rise. I think the attitude I hear from conservatives goes like this 'if you're lucky enough or smart enough to employ others, then it's your duty to financially rape them if possible'.

    Do you really think that the CEO of GM works 1000% harder than the average person he employs?

    The problem is that the top 1% somehow convinced a lot of people that businesses are responsible to their shareholders instead of their employees. But the truth is that employees make business profitable NOT the shareholders.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Right, like I said earlier we need to be lowering the standard of living of American workers to that of the Chinese or some other 3rd world country. Why should average Americans be so privileged? And talk about quality, eh, what's a little melamine in our baby food, candy, pet food et al., I mean you can go to any Wal-Mart and see the high quality of goods you can get on the cheap. So what if moving jobs overseas so that CEOs, Board of Directors and shareholders can make more money for themselves hurts the peon workers and their families and undermines the foundation of prosperity in our society, we really only want the rich to succeed anyway because they deserve it more. Sure there will be some lucky bastards who are able to make it from the bottom to the top but that will end too if we can just keep the populace poor enough. After all, we can't have the rabble reaching the upper crust and spoiling things with their crude and unrefined ways.
    About 6 months ago, I got some more house keys cut. Turns out I got the exact same type of key for my side door as my front door. I started to wondering how I was going to distinguish them, when I looked at the writing. The older front door key said, "usa." The newer one, "china." Upon that discovery, I couldn't help but wonder how much money Joe Key Company is saving, and how many American jobs were lost.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Do any of the union employees make $11,000 an hour? Richard Wagoner does. So if your beef is about misappropriation of pay, you can start at the top.

    As for the bull $70 hr., this is how the figure came that way:

    But then what's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages--again, $24 per hour--and you get the $70 figure. Voila.

    Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. (Talk about gold-plated coverage!) Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that--probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees--in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.

    Pretty misleading, no?

    Now tell me Goobieman, if there was universal helthcare in the US, do you think that would help the big 3?
    Since you didnt answer my question, I will ask again:
    What % of the big 3 payroll (inc benefits) goes to the CEOs?
    What % of the payroll (inc benefits) goes to UAW workers?

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