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Gays movement without support

Ikari said:
That's fine, but it's not my job to raise your kids. That's fact. How many people rallied against the "It takes a village" nonsense Hillary spewed? It doesn't take a a village, it takes responsible adults. Maybe I don't want kids, why should I be paying for everyone else's kids then? I didn't make the choice, you did. Live by it. Children do eventually bring benefit, and they will have to work and do what they can and maybe have kids of their own; but it's all individual choice. I shouldn't be held financially responsible for your choice to have kids. Why do I have to pay for schools? Because it provides some benefit to society? Great, good job doing a duty to "society". But it was your choice, it is then your responsibility. I didn't agree to help raise your kids, so you should quit stealing from me in order to do it.
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So, you think we should get rid of the public school system then?
 
Ikari said:
We're doing great. We're at replacement, just a tad above with immigration. That's exactly where you want to be. Unlike most of the West and Japan who have negative population growth. We're currently having just the right number of offspring.
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Unfortunately, thats also a very fragile position.
 
Ikari said:
That's fine, but it's not my job to raise your kids. That's fact. How many people rallied against the "It takes a village" nonsense Hillary spewed? It doesn't take a a village, it takes responsible adults. Maybe I don't want kids, why should I be paying for everyone else's kids then? I didn't make the choice, you did. Live by it. Children do eventually bring benefit, and they will have to work and do what they can and maybe have kids of their own; but it's all individual choice. I shouldn't be held financially responsible for your choice to have kids. Why do I have to pay for schools? Because it provides some benefit to society? Great, good job doing a duty to "society". But it was your choice, it is then your responsibility. I didn't agree to help raise your kids, so you should quit stealing from me in order to do it.
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You're not raising my kids, not even close. But you wouldn't understand that since you have none.
 
Invayne said:
YES!!!:prof
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Well, I'm glad one person agrees with me! :mrgreen:

Only thing is, if that happens, all that there will be left is private schools, which tend to be quite expensive for middle class people to afford.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Well, I'm glad one person agrees with me! :mrgreen:

Only thing is, if that happens, all that there will be left is private schools, which tend to be quite expensive for middle class people to afford.
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What would eliminating public schooling afford us? Is there any positive side to this? :confused:
 
Shewter said:
What would eliminating public schooling afford us? Is there any positive side to this? :confused:
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Because its education that only the government approves, not what the parents or citizenry thinks should be approved. If the government wants kids to sing "heil Obama", they can.

Now, I do agree that we cannot eliminate public schooling without making it cost-easier for parents to give their kids schooling at home, or at private schools.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Because its education that only the government approves, not what the parents or citizenry thinks should be approved. If the government wants kids to sing "heil Obama", they can.

Now, I do agree that we cannot eliminate public schooling without making it cost-easier for parents to give their kids schooling at home, or at private schools.
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Okay. I'll go with that.

Why then should we eliminate it and not just work on making private or homeschooling easier on the pocket as well?

More choice = good imo.
 
Shewter said:
Okay. I'll go with that.

Why then should we eliminate it and not just work on making private or homeschooling easier on the pocket as well?

More choice = good imo.
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Because making it more cost effective will 1)cost more money and 2)cause more parents to go to private schools, and if parents are going to go to private schools, why waste money on public schools? At least localize public schools so that it frees the Fed of the burden.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Well, I'm glad one person agrees with me! :mrgreen:

Only thing is, if that happens, all that there will be left is private schools, which tend to be quite expensive for middle class people to afford.
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In addition with the school being private, they can pick and choose whoever they admit. Which sadly is one of the negatives to an all private school system.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Because its education that only the government approves, not what the parents or citizenry thinks should be approved. If the government wants kids to sing "heil Obama", they can.

Now, I do agree that we cannot eliminate public schooling without making it cost-easier for parents to give their kids schooling at home, or at private schools.
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Don't you think that would cause a kind of a cluster**** in our current system? Politics aside, there is an agreed curriculum throughout the public system and it hasn't really failed us. If you remove the public school system and don't have at least some kind of regulation then private schools would pop up that teach completely absurd ideals that simply aren't true. We would be putting people through these private schools with completely absurd ideals and placing them on a similar level with normal rational people. I just see it kind of turning into a huge mess. Then again, I could be wrong.
 
American said:
You're not raising my kids, not even close. But you wouldn't understand that since you have none.
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Then quit making me pay for them.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Unfortunately, thats also a very fragile position.
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To a degree. There will always be people who want kids and will have them. And we can supplement with immigration.
 
dclxvinoise said:
Don't you think that would cause a kind of a cluster**** in our current system? Politics aside, there is an agreed curriculum throughout the public system and it hasn't really failed us. If you remove the public school system and don't have at least some kind of regulation then private schools would pop up that teach completely absurd ideals that simply aren't true. We would be putting people through these private schools with completely absurd ideals and placing them on a similar level with normal rational people. I just see it kind of turning into a huge mess. Then again, I could be wrong.
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Private sector could take care of it. Want to send your kids to school? Fine, but pay your own way for it.
 
Ikari said:
There should be no tax relief, or if there is it should be limited. 3K per kid without limit, you can birth yourself out of taxes. If your contention is that you have to have these tax breaks to raise children, then maybe that says that the overall tax rate is too high.

Why is it that a lot of resistance to the "pay your own way" doctrine comes from the very same people who argue the rich should keep more of their money? They earned it, they should keep it right? Well I earn mine too, why do I need to pay for you? Also, minimum wage should be abolished.
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Well, I think that we have to recognize that, responsibly or otherwise, the tax code has been used (abused) in a social engineering kind of way. Whether via incentives to promote behaviors (saving for retirement, purchasing hybrid vehicles) or via disincentives to disincentivize other behaviors (smoking, energy use). Hence, it's not surprising to recognize that the tax code then provides tax incentives for having children and provides tax advantages for married couples. These incentives/advantages reflect what, imo, is a compelling interest to the State - promoting marriage and procreation.

Now, I'm not sure what you mean by the pay your own way doctrine, though I am presuming that you're referring to resistance to government actions repealing these benefits or advantages. As such, I see no hypocrisy. The resistance ain't to paying your own way but a resistance to the federal government choosing to no longer incentivize marriage and procreation. Like me, they recognize a compelling interest for the government to encourage the existence of our society rather than adopting a national suicide pact as it discourages the regeneration of our own society.

Reproductive rates are so bad among western nations that one, Japan, is now directing employers to permit workers to leave work early in order to encourage sexual activity and reproduction. Western nations, and the US is on the borderline, are for the most part in negative replacement right now. In other words, unlike the US where birth rates per woman hover just above 2 per, you see elss than 2 across the Europe. Hell, even China is facing a similar birth dearth. Meanwhile, Muslims nations, African nations, and most Latin American nations are reproducing like rats. There's a strategic issue there that very few people are paying attention to.

It's also why they, like me, would argue that granting unprecedent access to terrorists and unlawful combatants and not permitting our intelligence services to use physically coervice interrogation techniques because we may offend Russia, China, Sudan, Iran, North Korea is simply signing a national suicide pact. Doing so virtually guarantees we won't be able to defend ourselves.
 
Ikari said:
To a degree. There will always be people who want kids and will have them. And we can supplement with immigration.
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then I suggest you home school yourself in 5 or 6 other languages so you can converse with the new owners of the USA....:2razz:
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Well, I'm glad one person agrees with me! :mrgreen:

Only thing is, if that happens, all that there will be left is private schools, which tend to be quite expensive for middle class people to afford.
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Competition will bring prices down, no? And anyway, we're paying WAY TOO MUCH for a public school system that does nothing but brainwash and teach politically correct nonsense. PLUS, only the people with children will be paying for it, which is fine by me.
 
Shewter said:
What would eliminating public schooling afford us? Is there any positive side to this? :confused:
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Yeah, your kids would get an education instead of being brainwashed with leftist bull****.
 
Ikari said:
To a degree. There will always be people who want kids and will have them. And we can supplement with immigration.
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Supplement? You mean replace, right? "Supplement" here in the US has been determined to constitute unlimited immigration lest the US reveal its true racist character.

Europe is trying to "supplement" it's population and they're struggling like hell to maintain their unique national identities.

I know, I know, nationalism and national identity is all so racist and nativist these days, but you know what, I kinda like the English language, a justice system based on western principles, religious freedom, etc.

"Supplementing" our population without requiring assimilation is national sucide. For a look at what that looks like just look at the balkanization of Europe's major cities. We see Muslims self-segregating throughout Europe. We Somali immigrants self-segregating thoughout England.

Of course, this is a major consequence of multiculturalism's explicit attempts to obscure, at best and eliminate, at worst, national identities because such identities are so oppressive because they force immigrants to assimilate and adopt and respect the host country's laws and cultural norms. :roll:
 
UtahBill said:
then I suggest you home school yourself in 5 or 6 other languages so you can converse with the new owners of the USA....:2razz:
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I already know Japanese. Besides, my career (scientist) puts me well in contact with the international community. Our birth rate is at replacement and with immigration we are slightly above. Now, this knee-jerk reactionary "learn a bunch of new languages" blah blah blah may work if we were talking completely open immigration; but that's not the case. We can increase immigration from its current standing and still leave time for assimilation into our society. We have enough people wishing to immigrate that we can always take from that pool (plus immigration is good for a society). Additionally, even if we remove tax "incentives" or at the very least restrict them so you can't keep claiming money the more and more kids you have; we won't be dropping our birth rate to those say like Japan. Japan has many cultural problems which also currently lead to its problem. Russia has a high, early death rate. Most of Europe I think gave up on sex. People will not stop having families. Removing the entanglement of state and marriage can only force us to reevaluate our overall tax policies and would remove the same sex marriage problem (as you can then nix the marriage license and return marriage fully to the realm of the Church).
 
dclxvinoise said:
Don't you think that would cause a kind of a cluster**** in our current system? Politics aside, there is an agreed curriculum throughout the public system and it hasn't really failed us. If you remove the public school system and don't have at least some kind of regulation then private schools would pop up that teach completely absurd ideals that simply aren't true. We would be putting people through these private schools with completely absurd ideals and placing them on a similar level with normal rational people. I just see it kind of turning into a huge mess. Then again, I could be wrong.
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Whoa! I think you have that ass backwards!

Public school is a failure. Why is it that so many people graduate and can't read or give change without looking at the cash register to see how much to give back?:roll:
 
Invayne said:
Yeah, your kids would get an education instead of being brainwashed with leftist bull****.
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strange, tho, with all that leftist brainwashing we are still about 50% conservatives...:2razz:
I never heard any of it, but my kids heard a little. I told them to ignore the BS and learn the truth for themselves. They are moderates as well....recognizing that truth can come from any side of an issue, as can lies...
 
Ikari said:
Private sector could take care of it. Want to send your kids to school? Fine, but pay your own way for it.
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I disagree. As a culture we tend to believe that some level of public education is valuable because it tends to assimilate/socialize children into our society to respect our government institutions, respect our laws, etc. As well, as a nation we recognize that some level of education is a determining factor in our nation's survival. Therefore, education presents a compelling justification for government action. Of course, the issue then is degree.

I think the major gripe about the public education system in the US is two-fold: a) it's been co-opted by multiculturalists to the point where American children now know more about MLK, Jr than they do the nation's founding and have been so indoctrinated with this cultural and moral relativism that the US is no better or worse than, say, North Korea; and b) it's been turned into a jobs program by liberal legislators and their union supporters.
 
Invayne said:
Whoa! I think you have that ass backwards!

Public school is a failure. Why is it that so many people graduate and can't read or give change without looking at the cash register to see how much to give back?:roll:
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You get out of education what you put into it....and lots of kids put in very little. We will always need minimum wage workers for the easy jobs. Public school prepared my kids for college well enough, but then, they had mean parents.:lol:
 
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