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Thread: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Blagojevich. What. An. Idiot.

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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Then how come half of our Governors have done time?

    How about Bettty Loren-Maltese?
    Mayor Nick Blase of Niles is going to do time as well.
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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Mayor Nick Blase of Niles is going to do time as well.
    Woodford county had a sherrif using the county credit card at the strip clubs. They also had a judge who was caught growing weed. Reagan went to school in that county!
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    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Mayor Nick Blase of Niles is going to do time as well.
    This can't be true. Illinois politicians don't get prosecuted and convicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Woodford county had a sherrif using the county credit card at the strip clubs. They also had a judge who was caught growing weed. Reagan went to school in that county!
    Reagan was just another example of a corrupt Illinois politician.
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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Quote Originally Posted by Family Guy View Post
    Well I can prove statistically that Alaska is far more corrupt politically based on political crimes per 100,000 population. The great state of Alaska is the THIRD MOST CORRUPT STATE in the USA when you measure actual convictions of politicians per 100,000 people.

    North Dakota is first
    Louisiana is second
    ALASKA IS THIRD
    Mississippi is fourth and
    Montana is fifth.

    Illinois is ranked 18th! Not even close to the worst state.

    North Dakota tops analysis of corruption - USATODAY.com

    North Dakota Tops State Corruption List

    Alaska has a US senator who has been convicted of felonies THIS year. Alaska is as corrupt as it gets politically and to deny this is to deny the facts.
    Hmm, three of the least populated states in the top 5, who would've guessed.

    It couldn't possibly be because of the fact that while there is a lower population that doesn't always form a correllary to an equal percentage of less political positions, right?

    Its amazing thing about Statistics, they're easy to make say what you want. Its why the statement is out there that there's the lies, the truths, and then statistics. Its why I can show you statistics that tell you that if you foul people a lot you're naturally score more points as well in basketball.

    And its amazing how you leave out certain facts from your thing. Such as the actual numbers of convictions.

    Alaska had 51 convictions. Illinois had 10 times that number with 502.

    Yes, by your statistics you could say Alaska is one of the most corrupt per person. HOWEVER, Illinois has TEN TIMES more corrupt politicians by your numbers than Alaska does. You can compare that to population all you want, that's a lot more dirty politicians.

    This is all pointless however, as per capita is rather useless as the number you'd need to get even a halfway decent statistic would be to compare it to "per political position".

    Even then, as has been pointed out, convictions is a poor means of determining corruption due to other variables...

    ...Have I mentioned that your source is a ****ty statistian that would be laughed out of a base level political science course if they tried to claim this "proved" anything...

    ...such as the effort by the justice departments of the states at actually rooting out corruption, how wide spread it may be that it is covering up other politicians, and other such things.

    Lets look shall we, just a quick look between the two:

    Illinois in the past few decades:

    Two programs,
    Illinois Chicago Hired Truck Program, city hiring of trucking companies with mob connections and ties to city employee's that did little work.

    Operation Greylord, influence peddling and bribery within illinois circuit courts

    Daniel Rostenkowski, mail fraud
    Carol Moseley-Braun, conspiring to hide $30k of medicaid money
    Percy Giles, racketeering, extortion, and other lesser charges
    Arenda Troutman, bribery
    Jim Laski, bribe taking in relation to trucking companies
    Lawrence S. Bloom, tax evasion
    Jesse J. Evans racketeering, extortion, conspiracy, attempted extortion, mail fraud, influence peddling, obstruction of justice
    Virgil E. Jones, extortion
    Joseph Martinez ghost payrolling
    Ambrosio Medrano extortion
    Allan J. Streeter extortion
    Fred B. Roti racketeering, conspiracy, bribery
    Judge Thomas Maloney bribe taking, extortion, and obstruction of justice
    Treasurer Edward Rosewell mail fraud
    Secretary of State Jesse White, fraudulently funneling taxpayer money to non-existant charity
    Miriam santos, mail fraud and extortion
    John S. Madrzyk, mail fraud
    Walter S. Kozubowski, city clerk, mail fraud
    Governor Blagojevich, well we all know that one
    Governor George Ryan, illegal sale of government licenses and contracts while Sec of State
    James DeLeo, state rep, taking bribes and tax offenses
    Joe Kotlarz, state rep, theft and conspiracy
    Bruce A. farley, state senator, mail fraud
    John A. D'Arco, state senator, bribery and extortion
    State Treasurer Jerry Cosentino, check kiting
    Governor Daniel Walker, savings and Loan scandal
    Jack ryan, sex scandal
    Mel Reynolds, sexual abuse of 16 year old campaign volunteer
    Dan Crane, censured in Congressional Page Sex Scandal

    and Alaska:

    Trooper Gate
    Thomas Anderson, extortion, bribery, conspiracy, money laundering
    Pete Kott, Bribery
    Vic Kohring, bribery
    Jim Clark, conspiracy
    Ted Stevens, Bribery and tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Chicago is really bad. Chicago is Illinois.

    Can you guarantee that Alaska will remain free of corruption. Oil=Money=corruption.
    Not at all. I don't think anyone in here was saying that Alaska is not corrupt. Politics in general is corrupt. Go anywhere with politics and you'll find some corruption.

    The statement however was that someone was trying to compare Alaska to Illinois in regards to a history and routine nature of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Then why did Alaska have the THIRD most convictions of Politicians per capita in from 1998 to 2007?

    THAT is a fact.
    Read above. You can get a lot of interesting "FACTS" with statistics, doesn't mean they MEAN anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    George Ryan would probably disagree. There were 500 convictions in Illinois as well during the time frame.

    Chicago is corrupt. I'm not claiming it isn't, but Alaska is ALSO corrupt. ALL States have corrupt politicians. I thinka ****load of people who don't know squat about Chicago outside of its reputation (One that stems from Al Capone's era) are talking a lot of **** and pretending their own states aren't similarly corrupt.
    And no one is saying Alaska ISN'T corrupt. What people were rolling their eyes at was a poster trying to take a partisan jab because someone DARED to insult the almighty Obama and thus had to take a jab at Palin, using a comparison that was faulty. Alaska had 50 convictions for corruption in the span that the article was done, Illinois had 500. It wasn't that Alaska wasn't corrupt, it was saying that trying to compare it to Illinois in this example was a bad example and was just someone trying to take a ****ty partisan jab and doing it incredibly poorly. This was doubly true considering that no one before that poster was making it a partisan thing, instead talking about Illinois/Chicago politics in general. You'd note that two of those governors I listed above were REPUBLICANS...it wasn't about party until one hyper-partisan poster decided it'd be funny to throw a ****ty comparison in to protect their "Side".

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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And no one is saying Alaska ISN'T corrupt. What people were rolling their eyes at was a poster trying to take a partisan jab because someone DARED to insult the almighty Obama and thus had to take a jab at Palin, using a comparison that was faulty. Alaska had 50 convictions for corruption in the span that the article was done, Illinois had 500. It wasn't that Alaska wasn't corrupt, it was saying that trying to compare it to Illinois in this example was a bad example and was just someone trying to take a ****ty partisan jab and doing it incredibly poorly. This was doubly true considering that no one before that poster was making it a partisan thing, instead talking about Illinois/Chicago politics in general. You'd note that two of those governors I listed above were REPUBLICANS...it wasn't about party until one hyper-partisan poster decided it'd be funny to throw a ****ty comparison in to protect their "Side".
    It's not about party, and I agree that Illinois is Corrupt, but there has been an air of superiority about how Chicago politics guarantees that anyone who comes form here would be corrupt just by the fact that they are from here.

    Many people have said that about Obama and they have said it is because of Chicago's Corruption. What that stat given does is show that no matrter WHERE you are talking about, corruption exists.

    But there are posters form Louisiana making negative comments about Chicago and Illinois and that is plumb retarded.
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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    I agree with you in saying that ANYONE that comes out is definitely corrupt. I can understand people stating it, but I don't agree with it.

    I DO however think its a LOT more legitimate to ask about the likihood of someone coming out of Illinois, Chicago espicially (i'd love to see Chicago compared to some of the other major cities in the U.S.), completely clean. I don't care about what the per-capita is...when you have 500 people found guilty of corruption charges, in all branches of government, and a countless amount not discovered I don't think its out of bounds to question it. I don't even think its out of bounds to be skeptical and think its likely. I do think its hard to say "100%, I'm positive he's dirty".

    I think its FAR more likely as well, no matter what the "per capita" flawed statistics try to tell you, that such a question is FAR more fitting in a place like Illinois or Louisiana with a long history of NUMEROUS dirty political actions than in a place like Alaska or Montana where the number isn't even into three digits. The per capita statistics is a flawed method of judging.

    Yes, corruption exists everywhere, that is true. But its also like saying someone living on the streets of Detroit's or Oaklands chance of being murdered "Soft of" like someone living in Mississippi or New Mexico. And then, after people look at you strangely thinking "you're kidding right, Detroit is known for being pretty murder heavy you go "Yeah! Well, Mississippi is the 4th and New Mexico the 3rd most murders per capita of any state, so naturally they're a lot more dangerous than 13th ranked Michigan or 11th ranked California

    Of course, ignore the fact that Michigan and California's numbers are skewed in have much larger populations than Mississippi and New Mexico. It also ignores the fact that if you don't look at states but focus on the hot beds of states, Detroit is the biggest per capita murder city in the U.S. and Oakland is 6th.

    This is the issue with statistics. They are easily twisted, manipulated, presented, and have facts and factors ignored to be able to show what you want but prove really nothing.

    Is there corruption in Alaskan politics? Yes, there's corruption everywhere. But a reasonable view of the history of both places and viewing them in the full scope of that government, and specifically looking at Chicago itself, you can not say that Alaska is on par in regards to the wide spread nature of corruption nor can you really say that its WORSE than Illinois and Chicago in particular have been in the past decades.

    That's not saying there's not corruption there, its just saying its not reasonable to say its as bad or worse than what's been present in Illinois/Chicago.

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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I agree with you in saying that ANYONE that comes out is definitely corrupt. I can understand people stating it, but I don't agree with it.

    I DO however think its a LOT more legitimate to ask about the likihood of someone coming out of Illinois, Chicago espicially (i'd love to see Chicago compared to some of the other major cities in the U.S.), completely clean. I don't care about what the per-capita is...when you have 500 people found guilty of corruption charges, in all branches of government, and a countless amount not discovered I don't think its out of bounds to question it. I don't even think its out of bounds to be skeptical and think its likely. I do think its hard to say "100%, I'm positive he's dirty".

    I think its FAR more likely as well, no matter what the "per capita" flawed statistics try to tell you, that such a question is FAR more fitting in a place like Illinois or Louisiana with a long history of NUMEROUS dirty political actions than in a place like Alaska or Montana where the number isn't even into three digits. The per capita statistics is a flawed method of judging.

    Yes, corruption exists everywhere, that is true. But its also like saying someone living on the streets of Detroit's or Oaklands chance of being murdered "Soft of" like someone living in Mississippi or New Mexico. And then, after people look at you strangely thinking "you're kidding right, Detroit is known for being pretty murder heavy you go "Yeah! Well, Mississippi is the 4th and New Mexico the 3rd most murders per capita of any state, so naturally they're a lot more dangerous than 13th ranked Michigan or 11th ranked California

    Of course, ignore the fact that Michigan and California's numbers are skewed in have much larger populations than Mississippi and New Mexico. It also ignores the fact that if you don't look at states but focus on the hot beds of states, Detroit is the biggest per capita murder city in the U.S. and Oakland is 6th.

    This is the issue with statistics. They are easily twisted, manipulated, presented, and have facts and factors ignored to be able to show what you want but prove really nothing.

    Is there corruption in Alaskan politics? Yes, there's corruption everywhere. But a reasonable view of the history of both places and viewing them in the full scope of that government, and specifically looking at Chicago itself, you can not say that Alaska is on par in regards to the wide spread nature of corruption nor can you really say that its WORSE than Illinois and Chicago in particular have been in the past decades.

    That's not saying there's not corruption there, its just saying its not reasonable to say its as bad or worse than what's been present in Illinois/Chicago.
    The per capita numbers should be proportional to the total number of politicians, so there would be some validity to these data when discussing the propensity for corruption.

    I think a better metric would be "Corruption convictions per 100 politicians". That would be more indiciative of how widespread the corruption is. Each state has only one governor, but Illinois has way more politicians than Alaska.


    Alaskan State Legislature has a total of 60 members, whereas the Illinois General Assembly has 177. Alaska has a total of 3 National representatives (2 senators, 1 Congressman) while Illinois has a total of 21 (2 Senators, 19 congressman)

    Even just looking at these data, Alaska has 63 politician while Illinois has 198. That's without including Judges, Alderman, Elected Officials form individual municipalities and counties, etc.

    ****, Chicago has 50 Alderman. Almost as many alderman as there are total members in the Alskan Legislature. Since the list you gave of corruption includes these alderman, we should probably include them in our total numbers.

    If there were data showing the total number of all politicians in the entire state over the time vs. number of convistions over that same span, you would probably see that the proportions favor Illinois as well.

    The murder per capita comparison isn't appropriate because it is determinant on where you are located at a much more specific level than the larger statewide level.

    Whereas, in our representative republic, the per capita numbers DO have relevance. This is because the political population is a reflection of the total population.

    It wouldn't be a factor if the states had an equal number of politicians, but they aren't even close to equal.

    I'd be interested to see the ration of total politicians to the number of politicians convicted of corruption over the total time span.

    That would tell you more correctly than anecdotal evidence how pervasive the corruption is.
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    Re: Ill. Governor taken into custody, Obama's seat part of inquery...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The per capita numbers should be proportional to the total number of politicians, so there would be some validity to these data when discussing the propensity for corruption.

    I think a better metric would be "Corruption convictions per 100 politicians". That would be more indiciative of how widespread the corruption is. Each state has only one governor, but Illinois has way more politicians than Alaska.


    Alaskan State Legislature has a total of 60 members, whereas the Illinois General Assembly has 177. Alaska has a total of 3 National representatives (2 senators, 1 Congressman) while Illinois has a total of 21 (2 Senators, 19 congressman)

    Even just looking at these data, Alaska has 63 politician while Illinois has 198. That's without including Judges, Alderman, Elected Officials form individual municipalities and counties, etc.

    ****, Chicago has 50 Alderman. Almost as many alderman as there are total members in the Alskan Legislature. Since the list you gave of corruption includes these alderman, we should probably include them in our total numbers.

    If there were data showing the total number of all politicians in the entire state over the time vs. number of convistions over that same span, you would probably see that the proportions favor Illinois as well.

    The murder per capita comparison isn't appropriate because it is determinant on where you are located at a much more specific level than the larger statewide level.

    Whereas, in our representative republic, the per capita numbers DO have relevance. This is because the political population is a reflection of the total population.

    It wouldn't be a factor if the states had an equal number of politicians, but they aren't even close to equal.

    I'd be interested to see the ration of total politicians to the number of politicians convicted of corruption over the total time span.

    That would tell you more correctly than anecdotal evidence how pervasive the corruption is.
    Then why don't you show us going back to say...1958, which would be Alaska's beginning as a state. Show us proportional data over the years and let's see who has the most corruption. I waiting with bated breath.

    It would also be helpful if you could show a trend in the severity of the convictions, time served in office by the convicted, some measure of how many were involved in each corruption charge (Illinois has Alaska beat hands down when it comes to actual corruption rings), and a trend in how high the level of government of each of the convicted was.
    Last edited by jallman; 12-15-08 at 08:44 PM.

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