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Thread: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

  1. #111
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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit770 View Post
    So we're bankrupting ourselves because of a threat 5 years away and that threat will only be realized with provocation.
    Does your hyperbole and exaggeration know no bounds? The NMD is not bankrupting America.

    By your logic any country with nuclear capabilities could "hold us politically hostage".
    That's right. However, we have seen, current nuclear states have not attempted to do so. Given Iran's indisputable sponsorship for terrorism and numerous threats of annihilating Israel, I don't find it such a stretch to see Iran attempting to reserve the nuke threat as negotiating tool.

    Are you really so deluded as to think this will happen?
    Bad faith, again. I must be delusional because you disagree with me.

    The only reason you believe this is because the hack of a president Bush said we should be afraid. I see all of the Neo-cons for what they really are. Cowards.
    Really? Iran has not several times acknowledged its ambition to annihilate Israel, to see the US fall, engaged in many acts of war against the US? Noen of this has happened?

    Oh wait...it has happened. But the US is at fault.

  2. #112
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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Nixon View Post
    Russia is threatened by a defensive measure? This is ridiculous. The Russians are basically asking the US to keep the missile defence system down so they can attack if needs be. DEFENCE system - that 'defence' part is the key here as it not, in fact, 'attack' and thus not directly a threat to Russia.
    Well, that's not why the Russians might feel threatened. The NMD would give the US some strategic advantage. Hence, the Russians perceive a shift in the balance of power, i.e., it's ability to successfully strike the US with missiles being diminished.

    I don't hold the Russians as contemptable because they perceive such a shift. We take for granted the notion that the US ain't a first strike kinda-nation when it comes to major powers. But Russia doesn't and shouldn't count on that nature changing.

  3. #113
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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit770 View Post
    So NK is a threat, everything coming from Iran says it is not.
    I'll take that as you admitting to the existence of a relevant threat.

    Do you have a different reason for supporting the spending of 1/3 the budget on our military than these threats?
    Epic fail here, on your part.

    Why do I need to prove this.
    Because "the NMD is intended to protect the US or its alloes from a residual second-strike missile attack" is YOUR argument.

    You agree the NMD is intended to protect the US from a missile strike. I believe there is no legitimate threat and you have brought forward nothing new.
    See above. You admit that NK is currently a threat.
    As far as 'nothing new':
    - You have learned a LOT more about the NMD, etc, from me than you knew before we started;
    - As stated before, the "stay ahead of the threat" argument precludes any necessity of showing a -current- threat.

    I did not say this.
    So you agree that the US SHOULD be able to shoot down a nuclear-tipped ICBM launched at her cities.

    I think it is a bad idea to spread this technology across Europe and into the middle east. If the purpose is to defend America then the technology developed should remain for that purpose.
    The US should not help protect its allies?
    So... you disagreed with the Cold War? WW2? WW1?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 12-09-08 at 11:41 AM.

  4. #114
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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit770 View Post
    So NK is a threat, everything coming from Iran says it is not.
    20 years of sponsored terrorism against the US and her allies indicates that there is no threat from Iran, huh? Iran's own stated convictions to annihilate Israel and see the US burn does not constitute a threat given that 20+ year history of committing acts of war against Israel and the US?

    Well, I guess when you consider that the US is at fault for global terrorism and Iran's behavior...well, yeah, nothing to see here, move along.

    Do you have a different reason for supporting the spending of 1/3 the budget on our military than these threats?
    1/3 of the federal budget ain't being used to fund NMD.

    Again, can you restrain your excessive hyperbole for even one moment?

    Why do I need to prove this. You agree the NMD is intended to protect the US from a missile strike. I believe there is no legitimate threat and you have brought forward nothing new. North Korea is a wild card and Iran is complying. As conquerer has brought up, war in the 21st century cannot be won through 21st century technology.
    Again, you behave as though no weapons system should be developed until after a threat has presented itself. That's just dumb. That logic would have us fighting with sticks and stones as such logic would discourage anyone from developing any other type of weapon.

    I did not say this. I think it is a bad idea to spread this technology across Europe and into the middle east. If the purpose is to defend America then the technology developed should remain for that purpose.
    Oh? So you would then argue that the US should not have shared air defense technology and weapons systems with Europe during the post-WWII period? The stated purpose for such systems when developed was to protect the US.

    Dang, you'll do anything to permit the jihadists and mullahs in Tehran to hammer Israel, eh? Why?

  5. #115
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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The US should not help protect its allies?
    So... you disagreed with the Cold War? WW2? WW1?
    So NK is a relevant threat and should be countered. Are you arguing that to defend against this threat we must fund join Israeli-US missile defense systems (angering and threatening deterrence of all ME Muslim countries) and put them in Poland/Czech (dividing Russian/US relations further). If you are not, I don't think we have as many disagreements as it appears.

    You are right, I have learned much more about the NMD, but nothing to convince me of the need to expand the program to our allies.

    WWI and WWII are not relevant in this discussion, we are clearly beyond the simple alliances of those days. The Cold War is. We had no choice after Stalin refused democratic elections in Eastern Europe. Still, show me a country intent on spreading its borders through military means, threatening our own, and I'll push the button.

  6. #116
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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    20 years of sponsored terrorism against the US and her allies indicates that there is no threat from Iran, huh? Iran's own stated convictions to annihilate Israel and see the US burn does not constitute a threat given that 20+ year history of committing acts of war against Israel and the US?

    Well, I guess when you consider that the US is at fault for global terrorism and Iran's behavior...well, yeah, nothing to see here, move along.



    1/3 of the federal budget ain't being used to fund NMD.

    Again, can you restrain your excessive hyperbole for even one moment?



    Again, you behave as though no weapons system should be developed until after a threat has presented itself. That's just dumb. That logic would have us fighting with sticks and stones as such logic would discourage anyone from developing any other type of weapon.



    Oh? So you would then argue that the US should not have shared air defense technology and weapons systems with Europe during the post-WWII period? The stated purpose for such systems when developed was to protect the US.

    Dang, you'll do anything to permit the jihadists and mullahs in Tehran to hammer Israel, eh? Why?
    JMak I have no desire to debate you nor deal with your petty personal attacks and misrepresentations.

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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit770 View Post
    So NK is a relevant threat and should be countered.
    I believe that you agreed that NK is a current threat, yes.
    Given that therre is a threat, there's no cound argument against countering it.

    Are you arguing that to defend against this threat we must fund join Israeli-US missile defense systems (angering and threatening deterrence of all ME Muslim countries) and put them in Poland/Czech (dividing Russian/US relations further).
    Ijn operational terms, these are obviosly seperate issues.
    However, I have no issue whatsoever with:
    -Installing NMD-level coverage to protect any of our allies that want it;
    -Selling to and assisting Israel with their BMD needs.

    You are right, I have learned much more about the NMD, but nothing to convince me of the need to expand the program to our allies.
    That's because you're hung up on the idea that only present, rather than future, threats are legitimate reason to act. Only a fool plans for surrent threats and ignores what migh reasonably happen in the future.

    WWI and WWII are not relevant in this discussion, we are clearly beyond the simple alliances of those days.
    You're arguing agsint providing protection to our allies. Thus, relevance.

    The Cold War is. We had no choice after Stalin refused democratic elections in Eastern Europe
    So you agree that the US -should- protect her allies, when necessary.
    All over the map, you are.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 12-09-08 at 12:27 PM.

  8. #118
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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit770 View Post
    JMak I have no desire to debate you nor deal with your petty personal attacks and misrepresentations.
    What personal attacks? I have characterized your philosophy as I have seen it. Feel free to clarify your remarks if I am drawing inaccurate conclusions about you.

    What misrepresentations?

    And don't pretend that you do not misrepresent other poster's comments. I have drilled you on this before and will continue to do so.

    If I have misrepresented you then clarify your remarks. I do it all the time.

  9. #119
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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit770 View Post
    Are you arguing that to defend against this threat we must fund join Israeli-US missile defense systems (angering and threatening deterrence of all ME Muslim countries) and put them in Poland/Czech (dividing Russian/US relations further). If you are not, I don't think we have as many disagreements as it appears.
    There you go, again. You grant so much deference to feelings of other nations that you're willing to completely subjugate US sovereignty and national security to such feelings.

    Seriously, do you believe that the US should forego placing a strategically defensive system in Poland or the Czech Republic or Israel because the Russians or Iranians may become angry?

    Well?

    You are right, I have learned much more about the NMD, but nothing to convince me of the need to expand the program to our allies.
    Oh geez...what problem do you have with bringing our allies under our defensive unbrella? It's not like we have not explicitly done that already since WWII and effectively guaranteeing Western Europe's defense.

    WWI and WWII are not relevant in this discussion, we are clearly beyond the simple alliances of those days.
    They were never simple alliances. They have ebbed and flowed.

    The point is that since the end of WWII the US has effectively guaranteed the defense of Western Europe by installing various offensive and defensive weapons systems. Taking NMD there or to Israel is an extension of this active allied defense policy.

    We had no choice after Stalin refused democratic elections in Eastern Europe. Still, show me a country intent on spreading its borders through military means, threatening our own, and I'll push the button.
    Wow, that's awfully courageous of you. A position that for you carries zero risk and no consequences. Meanwhile, the world ain't so easy and simple.

    As well, what you've stated would mean you favored US military intervention in Georgia given that Russia had no intention of simply permitting Ossetia to establish itself as a new state. In other words, via military means, Russia would have annexed Ossetia.

    Am I "misrepresenting" your words?

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    Re: US successfully tests anti-missile shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes. Gaining control of US ICBMs and using them on US cities is the simplest and easiet option for terrorists who want to nuke US cities.
    Someone has been watching too much 24.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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