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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I kinda wish you'd read what I write. There is a genuine public shift of opinion to more inclusion. Christianity doesn't enjoy the same amount of prestige and monopoly it once did. There are individuals who go further, as I clearly stated before. That's not the whole, that's individuals. I did not claim they didn't exist, I clearly said you can find them on the individual level. Those words were right there in the text I wrote down. Their actions, however, are not part of the whole nor does it reflect on the aggregate shift of public opinion towards more inclusive views of differing religions and displays. That group is specifically exclusive, but the are not the majority and are not representative of what I was talking about. Again, it was clearly written in the post you quoted.

    Your hyperbole and...well outright lie that I claim they don't exist...I don't know where you get off trying to make claims which were so obviously and blatantly false. Nor as to how it would accomplish any goal in the debate for you to have severely and (for I can think of no other reason) purposefully misrepresent what I had written. Especially in relation to that specific quote as your lie and misrepresentation does not seem to accomplish anything to further even your side of the debate.
    Instead of becoming over emotional and insulting you might try to show how the ACLU is merely an extreme fringe with little influence or no ability to lead public opinion.

    We agree that there is a shift in public opinion. Where we differ is that you believe the shift is naturally occurring within the public, and I believe the public is being lead.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Instead of becoming over emotional and insulting you might try to show how the ACLU is merely an extreme fringe with little influence or no ability to lead public opinion.

    We agree that there is a shift in public opinion. Where we differ is that you believe the shift is naturally occurring within the public, and I believe the public is being lead.
    It was neither overly emotional nor insulting. I merely asked you to read what I write. When I state something and then someone quotes that and misrepresents what I had written, I'm going to ask them to be more careful.

    The ACLU is a group of lawyers who sit around and look for things they don't think are just and brings the issue to court. They don't necessarily influence the whole of the public; they probably have sway over part of the public, but I would doubt their influence covers the whole. Plus there is another group of the public which tends to have severe backlash against the ACLU. The overall shift is merely a shift in inclusion. That as a drift that was bound to happen in a free society. As people open up and become more and more exposed to differing ideals, people, religions, etc. they naturally become more tolerant of those things. It's because on the whole people are people and while there are bad examples in every group; most people aren't bad. So you meet a new person from a group you looked down on, you get to know them, and you start to think "hey, this guy ain't so bad". Any open society is going to have this, so we've moved to a point where we're becoming well more tolerant of folk, and in fact liking people that are different than ourselves. So we begin to think in broader terms.

    Is it forced/led? I'm not sure that something like this can actually be forced, I think you'd get well too much resentment. Look at what happens when people try to push same sex marriage. If the people aren't ready to accept it, there's going to be major resistance. Just because maybe the ACLU picks up the case doesn't mean that the people will automatically say "oh well, same sex marriage if fine". Though I do personally believe that we will eventually arrive there, same as other things. There's a natural progression and maturing of society as it ages. There are things which can be forced, but public opinion is the aggregate of the opinions of individuals and we have yet to find a machine that can force people to think in particular ways. Thus public opinion closely resembles the opinion of many individuals in the society. I see nothing which would indicate that this is a movement led by some group either. It has all the appearance of natural progression. While groups can come together and support or denounce certain movements, I would find it hard to believe that such a large perception shift is due to something of that nature. I believe people on the whole have just experienced a lot of different things over many generations and have come to adopt more inclusive policies, including in the realm of religion.
    Last edited by Ikari; 12-17-08 at 04:09 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You said...

    "This has been argued endlessly and seems to be an open debate only among xians who want favoritism for their religion, which they get anyway." - Slippery Slope

    You are saying specifically Christians want favoritism, and are getting it anyway. So no, I have not changed your premise in any way.



    All established legal religions in this country pay no property taxes. So this is not any kind of special Christian treatment.



    Here is a list of all National holidays...

    January 1, 2009 - New Year's Day

    January 19, 2009 - Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday (observed)

    February 16, 2009 - President's Day

    May 25, 2009 - Memorial Day (observed)

    June 14, 2009 - Flag Day

    July 4, 2009 - Independence Day

    September 7, 2009 - Labor Day

    October 12, 2009 - Columbus Day (United States)

    November 11, 2009 - Veteran's Day

    November 26, 2009 - Thanksgiving

    December 25, 2008 - Christmas | December 25, 2009


    Hmmm looks like those "holidays" don't exist according to the US government.

    Your premise for this one is ridicules at best.



    You mean the initiative that gives Federal funding to all religious aid organizations? You mean the same government funds that go to secular aid organizations?

    Again not just for Christians here.



    So far you have proved little and said much of nothing. You are going to have to try much harder post more than a few biased and silly examples.
    Fine, you're absolutely right, I was too narrow by pointing to xians. This is because xianity is the majority.

    Hows this then - the religious get favoritism for their religions. Feel better now that I included the other religions?

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It was neither overly emotional nor insulting.
    You were much of each.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I merely asked you to read what I write.
    Witch I did. Every word.

    I have found that repetition is often required, and I stopped expecting people to get what I'm saying the first time I say it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    When I state something and then someone quotes that and misrepresents what I had written, I'm going to ask them to be more careful.
    You are bing insulting again.

    You just accused me of deliberately misrepresenting your argument; being dishonest.

    Please stop and consider the possibility that someone may simply misunderstand your point. I suggest that when you see someone inaccurately reflect your argument, that you guide them to an accurate view and display a fair measure of tolerance before accusing them of deliberate misrepresentation.

    I suppose I should give you time and space to practice your communication skills before attempting to have this discussion with you further. Your insults only shut down communication, which is when the punishable flame begins.

    I'm sorry neither of us were able to convince the other today
    Last edited by Jerry; 12-17-08 at 04:28 PM.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Thank you kindly for this response.

    The government of the US is secular just as it should be.

    The whole US as a nation the secular government is an element of is not secular.

    I think it's important for people to realize the distinction.
    Sorry, you sentence came out so ****ed that I can't figure out what you are trying to say. Can you please rephrase?

    Just because your computer doesn't have a word program is no excuse for not proof reading. Hell, Firefox even underlines misspelled words so you can look them up if your spelling is that bad. IOW, you get no pass because you are connected to the internet.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The argument against slavery was based on ideals codified in the 14th amendment. The 14th amendment is based on the Natural Law of the Deceleration of Independence, which is overtly Christian.

    Therefore, slavery's end in America is accurately credited to core Christian ideals.

    Not secular ideals.

    Arguing, as you just did, that the presence of Christianity = the presence of slavery is contradictory logic. Christianity, coming from Judaism, is nesiseraly based on deliverance from savory. One only needs to look at history to see that this Christian nation, in it's pursuit to become more perfect, seceded in becoming more perfect in it's practice of it's ideal when it chose to end slavery.

    Also, arguing that the whims of society are inherently benign and that the law must change to accommodate whatever those whims are is to allow slavery to be re-established if the whims of society head in that direction.
    Actually you're wrong. Hume was a greater influence to the founding fathers in the area of natural law/natures god along with Locke and a few others.
    Judaism was not against slavery as evidenced in the bible and slavery was outlawed by most civilized nations long before the founding of the USA. Southern business owners (plantations) used xianity and the bible to keep support for slavery. Much in the same way that businesses and the republican party use xianity today.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You were much of each.
    Twas neither. Less you have cameras in my lab and where observing my behavior, you'd actually not be able to know. Other than going off the written word, which is sometimes hard to portray emotion through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Witch I did. Every word.
    Then you would have clearly seen the note in which I said the behavior is found on the individual level. Which, of course, means that I don't claim it to not exist; it's just not reflective of the whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You are bing insulting again.
    I am not, I am merely asking that one exercise diligence. That's not an insult, it's a request. Had I been obtuse, or had used improper grammar or rhetoric I can understand mistakes. It's not a universal. However, that which is in question was unambiguously written down. It was in fact the second time in this thread alone you had misconstrued and misrepresented what I wrote. The first being when you claimed I was trying to equate Christianity with slavery. In fact, the second post you misconstrued was a clarification to the first one in which I was unequivocally stating that I was in no way blaming Christianity for slavery (
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Arguing, as you just did, that the presence of Christianity = the presence of slavery is contradictory logic.
    as reference). Thus seeing two "misconstruings" (which is a word I just made up) in as many posts, I naturally concluded that you were not clearly reading what I was writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You just accused me of deliberately misrepresenting your argument; being dishonest.
    It seems hard that it was any other way, especially if (as you claim) you read every word I had written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Please stop and consider the possibility that someone may simply misunderstand your point. I suggest that when you see someone in accurately reflect your argument, that you guide them to an accurate view and display a fair measure of tolerance before accusing them of deliberate misrepresentation.
    I had considered it well. I am not without fault and oft have written things in a confusing manner. However, that was not one of those times. And considering the previous misunderstanding which I had to correct, following immediately with another misunderstanding seemed a bit suspect. As if you were rushing through what I said without reading so that you could argue against a point that in reality I hadn't made. If I write in a confusing manner and one misconstrues it; I go back to clarify my argument. If someone makes subsequent mistakes, the aggregate of the folly starts to look purposeful or at the very least very careless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I suppose I should give you time and space to practice your communication skills before attempting to have this discussion with you further. You insults only shut down communications, which is when the punishable flame begins.
    Wait...is that an insult. The thing you were just complaining about? Except that mine were requests to be more careful and quit misrepresenting what I say. Where as yours is more a direct attack. That's ok, I can dish and take. I'll just give you time and space to practice your reading skills before attempting to have this discussion with you further.

    HAHA! You can't complain about that one, it was just as you dished out.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Sorry, you sentence came out so ****ed that I can't figure out what you are trying to say. Can you please rephrase?
    I am pleased to see that you have chosen to now use the quote code correctly. I appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Just because your computer doesn't have a word program is no excuse for not proof reading. Hell, Firefox even underlines misspelled words so you can look them up if your spelling is that bad. IOW, you get no pass because you are connected to the internet.
    • It's not my computer;
    • The guest account I use on it does not allow downloads, so I can't just go get a word program;
    • My skill at spelling is so bad that I hardly noticed an error in any of teacher's posts, so I don't even recognize words of my own that need to be looked up;
    • Yesterday I discovered that this computer has Firefox anyway, which doesn't have as good of a spell checker as MS Office, which I use on my computer, but is at least something.


    Also, you might notice that over the last week, some of my posts have horrible spelling while others are just fine. This is because the public library's computers have MS Office, while my father's computer has no word program at all.

    It's so much easier to simply exorcise torrence then assume you know all the facts and begin to make assumptions.
    Last edited by Jerry; 12-17-08 at 05:13 PM.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Wow, you really do need to look at your history.

    The most destructive wars in the history of man kind had nothing at all to do with religion. Just the death toll from WWII alone would be enough to prove you wrong. But lets add a few more...

    WWI
    Korea
    Vietnam
    English Civil War
    American Civil War
    French Revolutoin
    American Revolution


    And the list goes on and on.
    That's a bit disingenuous to say the least. While religion may not have been the direct cause of those wars it was none the less an important piece of the puzzle. You neglect the wars mentioned in the OT as well as the myriad of killing the Popes advanced.
    Modern warfare killed more people because of technology. The engine brought more people to the war and the bullet killed at a greater distance. If those wars had been fought with swords and bows they would have produced far less death. Korea and Vietnam were fought because our xians had too keep communism from spreading godlessness. Remember? That's why we had to put "in god we trust" on our money and and "one nation under god" in our pledge. The problems with the Monarchy (and it's religious control of government) was one of a couple reasons for the American revolution. Similarly with the French revolution.
    The Civil war was over slavery and the southern xians used the bible to justify slavery.
    WWI, here's a xian fundy talking
    Its all to do with prayer. Theres two sides to the spirit war on earth. God and satan. Satan is always starting wars and conflicts and the prayers of the people, the christian believers, bring God into the situation. As the people pray, God releases His Spirit and his angels to come against the dark spirit beings that work with satan. Thats the way the Holy Bible tells us it is. In WW1 the prayers of the christian believers were against Germanys aggression (desire to invade and take control of Europe) and in the end God, His Spirit and the holy Angels brought the US into the war in support of England and France etc. and the allied forces defeated Germany. The very same thing happened in WW2. It may sound a bit childish... but its the truth. You can always ask Jesus if you want to know more.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Nonsense. atheists governments namley the communist regiemes killed over 100 million people last century.
    But you wrongly (go figure) attribute atheism to that. Most of those deaths were due to starvation because of a bad government. Atheism has no ideals or dogma to follow, only a lack of belief in the supernatural. If I run over a squirrel with my car it's not because my car hates squirrels.

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