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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

  1. #651
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Because he's talking to Mary. Mary hasn't conceived yet. The Angel visited Mary when Elizabeth was now in her sixth month. Which the Angel tells Mary this at the end of their encounter and Mary runs to see Elizabeth.

    None of this of course proves Jesus wasn't conceived in March, it just proves that this specific passage doesn't state he was. As I stated previously, we know Jesus was born 6 months after John the Baptist. If we find out when John was born we will know when Jesus was born. And also as a previously stated, John was born in March and thus Jesus was born in September.
    What is the basis for John being born in March?
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    Well, I'd rather have an unbiased teacher or rather one who doesn't have a clear political agenda.
    You keep accusing Mr. Medved of bias as though bias is a bad thing.

    Being wrong, spinning facts, lying, ignoring contrary evidence...these things are wrong.

    Having an opinion and the ability to back it up = not wrong.

  3. #653
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Moderator's Warning:
    Atheists take aim at ChristmasChristmas has been cancelled. The war is over. Go home and be with your families.


    //satire
    Reminds me of the movie "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" when Santa had to announce the cancellation of Christmas due to the weather before Rudolph saved the day.
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    The Treaty of Tripoli
    Annals of Congress, 5th Congress

    Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
    Thank you kindly for this response.

    The government of the US is secular just as it should be.

    The whole US as a nation the secular government is an element of is not secular.

    I think it's important for people to realize the distinction.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    K, so you're not going to answer the question. Fine.

    The founding fathers wanted a lot of things, Jefferson wanted routine revolution against the government (I happen to think this one should be done), many wanted laws to naturally expire after a certain number of years (in theory a good idea, but in practice would probably produce omnibills with lots of hidden laws). But this is our Republic, and the nature of what We the People want and desire changes. During the heyday of absolute Christian dominance, yeah there were what you said. But what's acceptable and what's not changes with time. The founders owned slaves, so unambiguously claiming that because the founders did it makes it right isn't a complete argument. I happen to like a lot of what the founders said, especially the anti-federalists (whom oddly enough were federalists in the true sense of the word). But what's political philosophy and what is public pressure/accepted norm are two different things. And the pressures and accepted norms change with the generations. Things aren't stagnate. Yes the founders did some of these things, they had religious holidays and evoked the name of gods in relation to politics. But that was then and this is now, the accepted norm isn't one of total and absolute Christian dominance anymore and the government, including the SCOTUS the body which currently has power to interpret the Constitution, has stated that it is no longer applicable.
    The argument against slavery was based on ideals codified in the 14th amendment. The 14th amendment is based on the Natural Law of the Deceleration of Independence, which is overtly Christian.

    Therefore, slavery's end in America is accurately credited to core Christian ideals.

    Not secular ideals.

    Arguing, as you just did, that the presence of Christianity = the presence of slavery is contradictory logic. Christianity, coming from Judaism, is nesiseraly based on deliverance from savory. One only needs to look at history to see that this Christian nation, in it's pursuit to become more perfect, seceded in becoming more perfect in it's practice of it's ideal when it chose to end slavery.

    Also, arguing that the whims of society are inherently benign and that the law must change to accommodate whatever those whims are is to allow slavery to be re-established if the whims of society head in that direction.

  6. #656
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    I wasn't blaming Christianity for slavery. I was merely pointing out that the argument that the founders did something doesn't hold together in and of itself. Things do change. There may have been necessity of a fledgling nation to keep slavery around till a point in which it could get rid of it and survive the turmoil that it would cause. I think there is a lot of merit in listening to what the founders had to say, especially when it comes to political philosophy. I find merit in much of their arguments. But as shown by slavery, just because it was allowed and accepted at the time of the founders doesn't mean it should still be around and accepted. Christianity had nothing to do specifically with slavery; but it too has undergone a perception change since the times of the founders. Christianity was at one time given lots of dominance, in some flavor almost all were a form of Christian and the society of the time had no problem in declaring it as such. So you have behavior on behalf of the founders which subscribed to some form of Christianity and the public perception allowed for a more "Christian or the highway" sort of outlook. Those times too have changed. And while Christianity is still the dominate religion, it no longer holds monopoly in the eyes of the public at large.

    Things have changed, and while not every whim of the majority can be entertained (as the majority can not infringe upon the rights of the minority); certain aspects can be entertained. I can't imagine how from my post you gathered that I was blaming Christianity for slavery; but to make it clear I was not. Nor do I buy the idea that Christianity took us out of slavery. I think there were many changes in the overall ideals of the people and even secular logic can easily lead one to believe that slavery is wrong and should be abolished. There's a lot of good ideals in Christianity, as there are in other religions, how much it is practiced is another thing. Slavery persisted during an age where the West was dominated by Christianity. It took time for people to change the overall aggregate opinions towards it. The base of Christianity would of course say it's wrong, but if people were always working from the base then it wouldn't have been a problem in the first place. Love thy enemy and turn the other cheek are also teachings from Christianity, yet how many Christians are pro war?

    Again, that's not saying Christianity causes war, for man causes war. But it's also not necessarily a road block either. What's necessary is overall perception shifts of the public. And theist and atheist logic can both lead to the same answer, there's nothing inherent in one that prevents it from echoing the other in terms of social construct.

    So just because the founders did something doesn't mean that we should still be doing it. There is a lot of wisdom in their words and philosophy, but there's also some folly in their action. It's not an end all excuse, though I happen to like much of the writings of the founders. There's no war on Christmas or War on Christianity in this country, that's just a ratings grab by people like Hannity and O'Riley. There is beginning to be an overall shift in public perception that is one of more inclusion of other ideals and opinions, but it's not something aligned against the practice of Christianity on the whole (there are individual examples of some being against the practice of religion, but that's a small percentage of the whole).
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    It is time to disconnect......

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    What is the basis for John being born in March?
    John's father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah [Luke 1:5] and it was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that his wife Elizabeth would have a child and after his service he traveled home and conceived John [Luke 1:8-13;22-24]. The course Abijah is the 8th course of the temple which starts the second sabbath of the third month, Sivan (May-June) [Chr 24:7-18]. So if Zacharias did indeed return home right after this service [Luke 1:23] then John was most likely conceived early July, nine months later John would have been born in March. Adding another six months, as Mary was 3 months pregnant at John's birth [Luke 1:26], Jesus would have been born in September.

    Despite all this, Christian's celebrate John's birthday on June 24 (Summer Solstice) and Jesus's birthday on December 25 (Winter Solstice).
    Last edited by Gibberish; 12-16-08 at 08:44 PM.
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Reminds me of the movie "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" when Santa had to announce the cancellation of Christmas due to the weather before Rudolph saved the day.
    Yep, just watched it with my niece a couple nights ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Always gotta crash a party, aye?
    Well excuse the hell out of me for posting in this thread.

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