Boston = City of Champions: Bruins 2011; Celtics 2008; Red Sox 2004, 2007; Patriots 2002, 2004, 2005
Jon Huntsman for President
Therefore, slavery's end in America is accurately credited to core Christian ideals.
Not secular ideals.
Arguing, as you just did, that the presence of Christianity = the presence of slavery is contradictory logic. Christianity, coming from Judaism, is nesiseraly based on deliverance from savory. One only needs to look at history to see that this Christian nation, in it's pursuit to become more perfect, seceded in becoming more perfect in it's practice of it's ideal when it chose to end slavery.
Also, arguing that the whims of society are inherently benign and that the law must change to accommodate whatever those whims are is to allow slavery to be re-established if the whims of society head in that direction.
I wasn't blaming Christianity for slavery. I was merely pointing out that the argument that the founders did something doesn't hold together in and of itself. Things do change. There may have been necessity of a fledgling nation to keep slavery around till a point in which it could get rid of it and survive the turmoil that it would cause. I think there is a lot of merit in listening to what the founders had to say, especially when it comes to political philosophy. I find merit in much of their arguments. But as shown by slavery, just because it was allowed and accepted at the time of the founders doesn't mean it should still be around and accepted. Christianity had nothing to do specifically with slavery; but it too has undergone a perception change since the times of the founders. Christianity was at one time given lots of dominance, in some flavor almost all were a form of Christian and the society of the time had no problem in declaring it as such. So you have behavior on behalf of the founders which subscribed to some form of Christianity and the public perception allowed for a more "Christian or the highway" sort of outlook. Those times too have changed. And while Christianity is still the dominate religion, it no longer holds monopoly in the eyes of the public at large.
Things have changed, and while not every whim of the majority can be entertained (as the majority can not infringe upon the rights of the minority); certain aspects can be entertained. I can't imagine how from my post you gathered that I was blaming Christianity for slavery; but to make it clear I was not. Nor do I buy the idea that Christianity took us out of slavery. I think there were many changes in the overall ideals of the people and even secular logic can easily lead one to believe that slavery is wrong and should be abolished. There's a lot of good ideals in Christianity, as there are in other religions, how much it is practiced is another thing. Slavery persisted during an age where the West was dominated by Christianity. It took time for people to change the overall aggregate opinions towards it. The base of Christianity would of course say it's wrong, but if people were always working from the base then it wouldn't have been a problem in the first place. Love thy enemy and turn the other cheek are also teachings from Christianity, yet how many Christians are pro war?
Again, that's not saying Christianity causes war, for man causes war. But it's also not necessarily a road block either. What's necessary is overall perception shifts of the public. And theist and atheist logic can both lead to the same answer, there's nothing inherent in one that prevents it from echoing the other in terms of social construct.
So just because the founders did something doesn't mean that we should still be doing it. There is a lot of wisdom in their words and philosophy, but there's also some folly in their action. It's not an end all excuse, though I happen to like much of the writings of the founders. There's no war on Christmas or War on Christianity in this country, that's just a ratings grab by people like Hannity and O'Riley. There is beginning to be an overall shift in public perception that is one of more inclusion of other ideals and opinions, but it's not something aligned against the practice of Christianity on the whole (there are individual examples of some being against the practice of religion, but that's a small percentage of the whole).
You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo
Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
It is time to disconnect......
Despite all this, Christian's celebrate John's birthday on June 24 (Summer Solstice) and Jesus's birthday on December 25 (Winter Solstice).
Last edited by Gibberish; 12-16-08 at 07:44 PM.
"Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
- Warren Buffett