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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

  1. #451
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The point was that originally the term holiday was told that saying it has a connection to religion because the origin of the word is holy-day. And since that was the original meaning, it still holds even though it is not used in such a reference anymore. Thus, if original meanings are all that matter than the original meaning for the spring equinox and winter solstice celebrations should hold true as well.
    Ah, but original meanings of most things are lost these days, the original point pages back was that holidays are being treated as secular break time, when in reality they are supposed to be religious days of obligation for observers of faith.

    The Easter bunny, by the way, is pagan in and of itself. The rabbit was a symbol of fertility, and that was one of the main celebrations for the spring equinox. I don't exactly know why it was adopted, but as other things it was probably to help pagans make a transition by usurping holidays and symbols.
    I don't argue the bunny is Pagan, that is true, but the overall point is that the Easter Bunny isn't a symbol of the actual christian mass, for the most part, he's just something we tell our kids about to keep their world magical for a while, and in the long run, I think when we as christian adults see it, our memories keep the kids in us alive while we observe the season. But the bunny has nothing whatsoever to do with the season outside of fluff.
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The Easter bunny, by the way, is pagan in and of itself. The rabbit was a symbol of fertility, and that was one of the main celebrations for the spring equinox. I don't exactly know why it was adopted, but as other things it was probably to help pagans make a transition by usurping holidays and symbols.
    The Easter Bunny found its way into Christian celebrations of the holiday in Germany and Alsace in the 17th century - more than 1500 years after the first celebration of the holiday. The Easter celebration derives from the Jewish Passover.
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Any EVIDENCE rather than your supposition that this was the purpose of the Dec. 25 date? I have already shared the Scriptural backing for it. Put up or shut up!
    Not all of Origen's contemporaries agreed that Christ's birthday shouldn't be celebrated, and some began to speculate on the date (actual records were apparently long lost). Clement of Alexandria (c.150-c.215) favored May 20 but noted that others had argued for April 18, April 19, and May 28. Hippolytus (c.170-c.236) championed January 2. November 17, November 20, and March 25 all had backers as well. A Latin treatise written around 243 pegged March 21, because that was believed to be the date on which God created the sun. Polycarp (c.69-c.155) had followed the same line of reasoning to conclude that Christ's birth and baptism most likely occurred on Wednesday, because the sun was created on the fourth day.

    The eventual choice of December 25, made perhaps as early as 273, reflects a convergence of Origen's concern about pagan gods and the church's identification of God's son with the celestial sun. December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman "birth of the unconquered sun"), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness" whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier. Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival.

    Western Christians first celebrated Christmas on December 25 in 336, after Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire's favored religion. Eastern churches, however, held on to January 6 as the date for Christ's birth and his baptism. Most easterners eventually adopted December 25, celebrating Christ's birth on the earlier date and his baptism on the latter, but the Armenian church celebrates his birth on January 6. Incidentally, the Western church does celebrate Epiphany on January 6, but as the arrival date of the Magi rather than as the date of Christ's baptism.
    Why December 25? | Christian History

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  4. #454
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    [QUOTE=LaMidRighter;1057849204]
    Ah, but original meanings of most things are lost these days, the original point pages back was that holidays are being treated as secular break time, when in reality they are supposed to be religious days of obligation for observers of faith.
    I don't like static arguments. Because things always change, and thus I was attempting to highlight the absurdity of trying to hold the old meaning of a word valid today while taking other things in their evolved state. Everything changes, even religious celebrations as we are seeing now. More and more certain religious holidays (especially Christmas) are being "secularized" I suppose is the word. That is that people celebrate it more for the celebration itself and less for the religious implications. This too will happen as everything changes; there is no infinite.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I don't argue the bunny is Pagan, that is true, but the overall point is that the Easter Bunny isn't a symbol of the actual christian mass, for the most part, he's just something we tell our kids about to keep their world magical for a while, and in the long run, I think when we as christian adults see it, our memories keep the kids in us alive while we observe the season. But the bunny has nothing whatsoever to do with the season outside of fluff.
    What about the finding of eggs? When was that implemented, the Egg is also another worshiped symbol of fertility; which was what the old Spring Equinox celebration was all about. In the end I don't really care if the fact that things like gift giving and and christmas trees all had roots in differing pagan religions. Nor do I care that Constantine put Christmas on the 25th, and that he has trying to unite the whole of his people under Christianity. Things now are as they are now, meanings and such have changed and people don't imply the same meanings to celebrations or words that they once did.
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Sounds like a lot of conjecture and mental masterbation in that quote.

    Very simply once again.

    The Annunciation to Mary is celebrated on March 25. The basis for this is that the angel came to her in the sixth month (which very well could have been late March in the modern calendar as measured from the Jewish New Year.) That same passage implies that Mary was not yet with child. Exactly nine months later, we celebrate the birth of Christ.

    I am not claiming that this is the day of His birth. However, the December 25 day wasn't simply taken from the blue nor was it unquestionably taken from a pagan festival either.

    Check my previous posts. I had already outlined this in more detail, which you and your cohorts basically ignored, presumably because you had no retort to it.

    Now, your complaints about Easter would be?
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Which was celebrated first, the winter solstice or Christmas? Christmas came after and the reasoning was to convert pagans. You can try to re-invent the reason all you want, but it won't succeed.
    Are you attending a winter solstice festival?
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    What about the finding of eggs? When was that implemented, the Egg is also another worshiped symbol of fertility; which was what the old Spring Equinox celebration was all about. In the end I don't really care if the fact that things like gift giving and and christmas trees all had roots in differing pagan
    Surely Easter egg hunts began CENTURIES after the initial Christian celebrations of Easter.
    Gift giving: Didn't the wise men give gifts to Jesus?
    Christmas Tree: Came into Christmas CENTURIES after the Dec. 25 date was set.

    Nor do I care that Constantine put Christmas on the 25th, and that he has trying to unite the whole of his people under Christianity. Things now are as they are now, meanings and such have changed and people don't imply the same meanings to celebrations or words that they once did.
    Fine. Glad it doesn't bother you, but it is used as justification by some that Christmas has pagan roots and it simply is not the case.
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Are you attending a winter solstice festival?
    Five days away. Don't miss it.
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Sounds like a lot of conjecture and mental masterbation in that quote.

    Very simply once again.

    The Annunciation to Mary is celebrated on March 25. The basis for this is that the angel came to her in the sixth month (which very well could have been late March in the modern calendar as measured from the Jewish New Year.) That same passage implies that Mary was not yet with child. Exactly nine months later, we celebrate the birth of Christ.

    I am not claiming that this is the day of His birth. However, the December 25 day wasn't simply taken from the blue nor was it unquestionably taken from a pagan festival either.

    Check my previous posts. I had already outlined this in more detail, which you and your cohorts basically ignored, presumably because you had no retort to it.

    Now, your complaints about Easter would be?
    Yes, they found a way to explain the date. Spring Solistice is in March. I just popped in here. I haven't been participating in this thread too much. Don't try to put me into some organized group you are fighting.

    I'm an atheist. I don't go to meetings. What about the Star discrepancy?
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Yes, they found a way to explain the date. Spring Solistice is in March. I just popped in here. I haven't been participating in this thread too much. Don't try to put me into some organized group you are fighting.

    I'm an atheist. I don't go to meetings. What about the Star discrepancy?
    Vernal Equinox is in March. (no such thing as Spring Solstice) Easter is SOMETIMES in March, so there is an automatic link between the two?

    Silly!
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