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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

  1. #421
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Good. Always nice when someone is willing to receive a window into themselves.

    I agree with your example and your statement that it is her responsibility. I stated something similar on the "happy holidays" thread. However, your example does not fit the premise. This is a more accurate analogy:

    Woman: Am I overweight?
    You: No, and skinny people look terrible.
    Woman: So you're saying I look terrible?

    Your additional commentary was unnecessary, and accented a point. The insinuation was indirect but was there. You have some responsibility in this one.
    I'm sorry but I don't think that this is analagous. I never made ANY blanket statements about believers in the supernatural, I deal with each claim on a case by case basis.

    Honestly I don't understand how "delusion" can be regarded as unneccessary? Or how you could think I was calling your belief a delusion.

    If I EVER do, I will be talking about it specifically, with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Not for public consumption, and could end up threadjacking this. I'm about to log off. I'll re-look at this thread, tomorrow and see. I know you were gone for a bit, so some more extensive research may be in order.
    I actually left because of all of the nastiness around election time. You seem to find the word "delusion" insulting, I really don't. You may just be more polite than me, or perhaps I've seen far worse than "delusional" far too many times.

    I used it because I regarded it as accurate, and feel that it would be no different if I said "people who believe something that is not true." I only used the word in concision, I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive or indirect.

    If I meant to be insulting, you'd know it. I can think of far more colorful language... "Bull****!" being my favorite, and my favorite show about debunking false claims.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 12-15-08 at 03:10 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  2. #422
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    In the end I don't think we disagree so much.
    I hear you.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  3. #423
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Don't think he's a Christian...
    He is correct, I am very much a Christian in practice and faith. I am non-denominational but stand strong with my brothers and sisters in Christ. Until they make me mad and I kick em' to the curve...

    Just kidding.

    I return the respect I am given.

    I am also an old earth Christian, so scientifically we are compatible.

  4. #424
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    He is correct, I am very much a Christian in practice and faith. I am non-denominational but stand strong with my brothers and sisters in Christ. Until they make me mad and I kick em' to the curve...

    Just kidding.

    I return the respect I am given.

    I am also an old earth Christian, so scientifically we are compatible.
    I'll go so far as to assume we agree on all things natural.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  5. #425
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I don't understand, don't you mean no regard for their feelings?
    Not precisely, though admittedly, I am more of a fan of civil debate than uncivil debate. No, more taking into consideration the essence of their position and attempting to understand where that comes from, rather than just arguing points in a disparaging way. Creates more of an attack-defend type of discourse, resulting in no understanding by either party. IMO, and I imagine you'll agree, the purpose of a religious debate is not to win. That is not possible. The purpose is for the other person to fully understand your position and get what you are presenting. Attacks do not accomplish that.

    I don't understand that. If I attack the 6000 year old earth theory, and you don't hold it, how am I alienating you? In fact you should be in the middle of it, explaining how one can be a Christian (or whatever you are) without being a biblical literalist.
    And not only would I love to, but I do, whenever I can. But not when you are degrading and mocking my beliefs with insulting comments. You will not find me coming to your aid in those circumstances.

    Full agreement.
    Good.

    Again I don't understand why you would be alienated by the debunking of someone else's mystical claim.
    It's not the debunking of the claim. It's the disparaging comments that go along with your debunking, as I explained above.



    Actually I think this is a case where you've taken something I said personally when that was not the purpose of the use.

    I was not talking about your beliefs when I said "delusions," because I don't know what they are. You said you believe in a god, I don't know what you mean by that. You could be using the word the way Hawking or Einstein do, referring to the Universe. And that isn't a delusion!

    When I was talking about the rare instance that people are "generally concerned about the actions one's delusions could lead them to" I literally meant that. In any instance where you fear that something someone believes, that you know is not true, will cause them to behave in a dangerous manner, to criticize that delusion is what it means to respect them.

    When dealing with a stranger, such as you, who does not make truth claims about his faith for all to attempt to debate, but keeps his faith to himself and you have no reason to believe it will effect them or yourself, there is no reason to debate or even criticize that belief.

    Someone has to put themselves out there to get my attention, making assertions about things they couldn't possibly know, I don't bait people who keep it private.

    Now if you want to be offended because I refer to demonstrably false supernatural claims as delusions, simply because you hold supernatural beliefs of your own... I again don't understand.

    It would be like if said that astrology were B/S, and a homeopathist took offense. I never said anything about your beliefs, unless I identified a fallacy that is the rationale for your belief.

    Why is delusion offensive if it is an accurate identification? You don't regard the word "false" or "wrong" or "illogical" as offensive as well do you?
    I am Jewish and I believe in one God. I suppose I would be classified as a deist. That is my business and I do not impose that belief on anyone else, nor does it govern the rational decisions I must make, day to day. Using the term "delusion" denotes a psychological disorder and is insulting. My beliefs may not be provable, however, they suit me fine, they do not interfere with me making rational decisions, nor do they cause me to affect anyone else in an irrational manner. Delusions is an incorrect term and is insulting. I understand, now that this was not personal, and I appreciate your clarification.

    Don't think I haven't noticed, this is the first time you've spoken to me on religion I think.
    I'm pretty sure it is; I'm very laid back when it comes to religion. Whatever one believes is OK with me, as long as they neither try to force those beliefs on me, nor place them with the government.

    And though we haven't debated this topic before, I have read you, extensively, over the past couple of years. Real smart guy, Good, solid debater. A little too aggressive at times.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #426
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't think that this is analagous. I never made ANY blanket statements about believers in the supernatural, I deal with each claim on a case by case basis.
    I've read you, a lot. Your words tend to become blanket statements when you get heated. Your pronouns sometimes exhibit absolutes rather than specifics, or you miss the pronouns altogether. Read this part of the sentence you wrote: "but generally concerned about the actions one's delusions could lead them to." One's denotes a generality. Blanket statement.

    Honestly I don't understand how "delusion" can be regarded as unneccessary? Or how you could think I was calling your belief a delusion.

    If I EVER do, I will be talking about it specifically, with you.
    See above. This is one of my pet peeves. Being aware of how we are speaking. As this is the internet and we do not have facial expressions, body language, or intonation to guide us, specifics in language are important. When you are responding to me, be aware of how you are responding to me.



    I actually left because of all of the nastiness around election time. You seem to find the word "delusion" insulting, I really don't. You may just be more polite than me, or perhaps I've seen far worse than "delusional" far too many times.

    I used it because I regarded it as accurate, and feel that it would be no different if I said "people who believe something that is not true." I only used the word in concision, I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive or indirect.

    If I meant to be insulting, you'd know it. I can think of far more colorful language... "Bull****!" being my favorite, and my favorite show about debunking false claims.
    Election time was very tense around here. I did far more moderating than posting. And I probably am more polite than most around here, but my issue isn't with the word, it is how it was used.

    And I prefer Mythbusters. Bull****! tends to be overdramatic.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #427
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Not precisely, though admittedly, I am more of a fan of civil debate than uncivil debate. No, more taking into consideration the essence of their position and attempting to understand where that comes from, rather than just arguing points in a disparaging way. Creates more of an attack-defend type of discourse, resulting in no understanding by either party. IMO, and I imagine you'll agree, the purpose of a religious debate is not to win. That is not possible. The purpose is for the other person to fully understand your position and get what you are presenting. Attacks do not accomplish that.
    I disagree with that, rational humans being convinced by the power of reason is possible in ALL debates. To be able to change ones mind when faced with new evidence is what it is to be a rational human being, and I truly believe in the power of reason.

    I believe that if my reasons for something that I believe are good enough you will helplessly believe as I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And not only would I love to, but I do, whenever I can. But not when you are degrading and mocking my beliefs with insulting comments. You will not find me coming to your aid in those circumstances.
    I have NEVER degraded or mocked your beliefs, ever. In fact I don't think I've even debated anyone on jewish theology. Its far to nuanced for my 1 liners...

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Good.

    It's not the debunking of the claim. It's the disparaging comments that go along with your debunking, as I explained above.
    Have I ever made any to you? I know that I have to other people, and I'll admit that I am knowingly making most every personal attack that I make.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I am Jewish and I believe in one God. I suppose I would be classified as a deist. That is my business and I do not impose that belief on anyone else, nor does it govern the rational decisions I must make, day to day. Using the term "delusion" denotes a psychological disorder and is insulting. My beliefs may not be provable, however, they suit me fine, they do not interfere with me making rational decisions, nor do they cause me to affect anyone else in an irrational manner. Delusions is an incorrect term and is insulting. I understand, now that this was not personal, and I appreciate your clarification.
    You're wrong that it is incorrect, any time I label a specific belief (water dowsing for example) as delusional, this is absolutely according to the definition of the word.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm pretty sure it is; I'm very laid back when it comes to religion. Whatever one believes is OK with me, as long as they neither try to force those beliefs on me, nor place them with the government.

    And though we haven't debated this topic before, I have read you, extensively, over the past couple of years. Real smart guy, Good, solid debater. A little too aggressive at times.
    Thank you and I know, I try to hold back and be less antagonistic but TBH I feel SO alive and SO aware when I debate on DP, and forget that I'm dealing with human beings rather than posted ideas.

    In fact its RARE that the fact that I'm talking to a feeling human gets taken into account. Perhaps I'll try harder, but I maintain that I did not incorrectly use the word "delusion" even if I concede that I see how one could take it as questioning the health of one's neurology.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 12-15-08 at 03:44 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  8. #428
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I've read you, a lot. Your words tend to become blanket statements when you get heated. Your pronouns sometimes exhibit absolutes rather than specifics, or you miss the pronouns altogether. Read this part of the sentence you wrote: "but generally concerned about the actions one's delusions could lead them to." One's denotes a generality. Blanket statement.

    See above. This is one of my pet peeves. Being aware of how we are speaking. As this is the internet and we do not have facial expressions, body language, or intonation to guide us, specifics in language are important. When you are responding to me, be aware of how you are responding to me.
    What in what you quoted of mine had an ambiguous tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Election time was very tense around here. I did far more moderating than posting. And I probably am more polite than most around here, but my issue isn't with the word, it is how it was used.

    And I prefer Mythbusters. Bull****! tends to be overdramatic.
    Mythbusters is awesome because they do their own work, on Bull**** the guys just pay a crazy research team, or hire actors. But I'm a huge fan of Penn.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #429
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Huh? There is nothing hypocritical about anything I said.. I speak the truth.. It is not my fault that your faith is a rip off of several others.. This is just a fact.. Sorry if you do not like my speaking facts.. I am not trying to insult ya.. Just being honest..
    Actually you are not correct on many points.

    #1 In stating the truth it makes you no less a hypocrite.

    #2 The Judo/Christian religions are not a rip off of other religions do to the fact religions from different regions of the world have great flood epics and yet no plagiarism was involved. Many such things exist with all religions. This does not mean they where copied.

    Satan is not a name given to Lucifer in the Bible. The Hebrew name "Satan" actually means "adversary," and most often in the Hebrew Bible it is prefaced by the direct object, meaning "the adversary" rather than a distinct personal name. His name in the Bible is "Lucifer." It was the Catholic church which started using it as a proper name for the devil.

    So as you can see you are operating under a few biblical misconceptions.

  10. #430
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I disagree with that, rational humans being convinced by the power of reason is possible in ALL debates. To be able to change ones mind when faced with new evidence is what it is to be a rational human being, and I truly believe in the power of reason.

    I believe that if my reasons for something that I believe are good enough you will helplessly believe as I do.
    I disagree. We are not talking about facts, here. We are talking about beliefs, philosophies, and to some extent, morals. These are not positions that have a right or a wrong. It's the same as the conservative vs. liberal debate. One might win on specifics, but overall, no one can win on what is better or, more accurately, more correct.

    I believe in GOD. There is nothing that you can say or do that will alter this.

    I have NEVER degraded or mocked your beliefs, ever. In fact I don't think I've even debated anyone on jewish theology. Its far to nuanced for my 1 liners...
    Let me be specific. When you degrade the belief of GOD, it attacks me, indirectly. Let's say you get in an argument with a Jew, and call him a Kike. Would I be offended? Somewhat. Yes, you did not direct it at me, specifically, but you directed it towards my ethnicity. You could insult that guy in far more specific ways, other than going after him being Jewish. What I am saying is that if you are going to attack someone's beliefs, try to go after what they are saying and be specific towards them.



    Have I ever made any to you? I know that I have to other people, and I'll admit that I am knowingly making most every personal attack that I make.
    No, you haven't. However, some of your comments are presented in generalities, attributing them to all of those of faith. I am one of them. That's where I have the problem.

    You're wrong that it is incorrect, any time I label a specific belief (water dowsing for example) as delusional, this is absolutely according to the definition of the word.
    Not the clinical definition. And even the layman definition identifies a delusion as something untrue. Unproven is more accurate.

    Thank you and I know, I try to hold back and be less antagonistic but TBH I feel SO alive and SO aware when I debate on DP, and forget that I'm dealing with human beings rather than posted ideas.

    In fact its RARE that the fact that I'm talking to a feeling human gets taken into account. Perhaps I'll try harder, but I maintain that I did not incorrectly use the word "delusion" even if I concede that I see how one could take it as questioning the health of one's neurology.
    This is one area that you and I are on total opposite ends of the spectrum. I always remember that there is a human on the other end of the screen, and make it a point to address them as such.

    And I appreciate your concession.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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