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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

  1. #401
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I've said "great surveillance camera in the sky" but that was to make the point that fear of god is a contemptible reason to be good.

    People have also confused one of my arguments with "Jesus is a myth like Santa." This often comes up when someone makes an argument ad ignorantum. They support their claim with the fact that one cannot disprove their god, and when I bring up some of the infinite number of things that cannot be proven (flying spaghetti monster, celestial teapots, unicorns) and explain that "just because these things can't be disproven doesn't make you believe in them any does it?"

    But they read that and hear "You're as childish as people who believe in unicorns" rather than my point that not being able to disprove a claim is not an argument for its truth.
    OK, but here's some feedback. Take it or leave it. When you point out the logical fallacy, that's all well and good, makes your point, and is not refutable. When you pepper it with things like "flying spaghetti monster, celestial teapots, unicorns" it comes across as degrading and insulting. Your message gets lost, as does your victory in the part of debate. All the other hears is that you are being insulting. I will say what I always say: PRESENTATION IS EVERYTHING. You are placing the blame, solely on the listener. You have a part in it.

    Now, I recognize that the more "rabid" amongst the religious are just as degrading and insulting as I accuse rabid atheists of being. But often you are not debating the rabid. I'd say, save the aggression for them.

    Just some feedback. Do as you will with it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #402
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Here's the problem as I see it...and it, as usual, starts with the extremists. You have some religious extremists who proselytize and attempt to push their beliefs on everyone, claiming that what they think is "correct". This, of course, brings the extreme atheists out of the woodwork, insulting anyone who believes in GOD. Now, what this accomplishes is a few things. Firstly, both groups of extremists attack everyone on the other side of their ideology, even those, of whom are the vast majority, who couldn't give a hoot about what anyone else believes and have no desire to place their beliefs on anyone else. Secondly, these non-extremists grow tired of being needlessly attacked, by the opposing extremists, sometimes forcing them to become more aggressive in order to defend themselves against unprovoked attacks. Lastly, this causes more of a divide, all cause by extremists who, with seeming little ego strength, feel the need to push their positions on others, or feel the need to degrade others positions, when, for the most part, those that they oppose could care less about imposing their beliefs on anyone else.
    I agree with this hypothesis entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    So, I now propose a question for atheists who seem to like to attack those of faith. I believe in GOD. I have no intention of placing my beliefs on you or anyone else. I do not want religion mixed with government in any way and will fight as strongly as you will against that happening. I am content to live my life with my beliefs and have no issue with you living yours with yours. Why do you feel the need to attack and degrade my belief system to me when I will not, in any way, attempt to place my beliefs on you?
    For several reasons:
    1. This is a debate forum, not a conversation forum.

    2. It is difficult to criticize the arguments of the "extremists" who DO want to shove their religion down my throat, and into the science classes, without criticizing your beliefs as well, if you happened to believe what they want taught in schools.

    3. I don't regard it as wrong to point out the fallacies in ones logic, but the highest form of respect. However, that is when its done in a constructive manner, and people aren't insulting each other, but generally concerned about the actions one's delusions could lead them to.

    This is hard because the issue gets so heated so quickly, it rarely occurs between anonymous strangers.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    I do not understand why some Christians consider things like "your magic man in the sky" or "Jesus is a myth like Santa" an insult.. It is true to them? I dunno.

    If you are deep in your faith why would that even bother you? I am just trying to understand here. I mean I could understand if someone said I love the thought of Jesus being nailed to a Crux and things like that..

    But saying that your god is just a myth is a valid argument and should not be considered an insult.. Because to some folks? That is what "your" Jesus" IS to Them.. That is their truth.. See what I mean? Jesus is a myth to a lot of people.. You really should not take that as an insult because that is their own reality.
    Because it shows an absolute and utter disrespect for my views and beliefs based on nothing more than your perception of not me, but my religion.

  4. #404
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    I do not understand why some Christians consider things like "your magic man in the sky" or "Jesus is a myth like Santa" an insult.. It is true to them? I dunno.

    If you are deep in your faith why would that even bother you? I am just trying to understand here. I mean I could understand if someone said I love the thought of Jesus being nailed to a Crux and things like that..

    But saying that your god is just a myth is a valid argument and should not be considered an insult.. Because to some folks? That is what "your" Jesus" IS to Them.. That is their truth.. See what I mean? Jesus is a myth to a lot of people.. You really should not take that as an insult because that is their own reality.
    When you do it, you are mocking their beliefs. It's insulting. If you believed in something, and someone insulted it, I would doubt that you would be OK with that.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #405
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This is a really good example from encyclopedia.com:

    "Geologists believe the explosion of new species that occurred during the Cambrian period can be explained by sudden, large swings in the Earth's axis of rotation caused by the shifting of continental masses. The shifting axis may have prompted weather and other changes, which placed stress on existing species." - New theory tilts Earth on its axis. (theory explains 'Cambrian explosion') - Insight on the News | Encyclopedia.com

    The evidence for this "theory" is weak at best, and yet it is still a scientific theory. This is what I mean by an educated guess. It does not make the science wrong or anything, but it is no less a guess on the part of scientists.

    This debate is about "theory" and it's scientific usage, and not "evolution" so forgive the use of an example that is closely related.
    I'm sorry I should have been clearer, when I said "the literature" I thought you would understand that I meant peer review science journal, rather than the often misconstrued version that the public gets from "journalists" seeking sound bites.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  6. #406
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    I do not understand why some Christians consider things like "your magic man in the sky" or "Jesus is a myth like Santa" an insult.. It is true to them? I dunno.

    If you are deep in your faith why would that even bother you? I am just trying to understand here. I mean I could understand if someone said I love the thought of Jesus being nailed to a Crux and things like that..

    But saying that your god is just a myth is a valid argument and should not be considered an insult.. Because to some folks? That is what "your" Jesus" IS to Them.. That is their truth.. See what I mean? Jesus is a myth to a lot of people.. You really should not take that as an insult because that is their own reality.
    Referring to a belief as a myth may be a valid identification, but if you're equating it to childhood storybook fables thats just adding insult to injury.

    What I find shocking is that believers don't realize that they're doing the same thing when they call other faiths false, or say things like "There is no god but Allah."
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  7. #407
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I agree with this hypothesis entirely.
    Good. I figured.


    For several reasons:
    1. This is a debate forum, not a conversation forum.
    And one does not need to debate with disregard for the other's position. Makes one seem argumentative and weakens their position.

    2. It is difficult to criticize the arguments of the "extremists" who DO want to shove their religion down my throat, and into the science classes, without criticizing your beliefs as well, if you happened to believe what they want taught in schools.
    But you see, I don't. Evolution should be taught in classes. That's it. I am probably one of the biggest proponents of comprehensive sex education, and anti-abstinence only education on this forum. When you attack and insult these religious extremists, who, I have little use for either, you alienate an ally: ME. I have always said that it is far more powerful from extremists to be confronted by the moderates of their own political persuasion than anyone from the opposite side. By alienating me, and others like me, you fall into the trap of the hypothesis that you agreed with me on.

    3. I don't regard it as wrong to point out the fallacies in ones logic, but the highest form of respect. However, that is when its done in a constructive manner, and people aren't insulting each other, but generally concerned about the actions one's delusions could lead them to.
    See. Here is where you did it. Delusions. Unnecessary. Insulting. My belief system is my own. What I do with it has no effect on you; I won't allow it to. Here, it is you who drops the constructivity of debate and become degrading.

    This is hard because the issue gets so heated so quickly, it rarely occurs between anonymous strangers.
    I tend to stay out of religious debates other than to do what I am doing here. Pointing out the attacking nature of the extremists of both sides and hoping for some reasonable discussion. One's beliefs are their own and without proselytizing, IMO, harm no one.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #408
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    OK, but here's some feedback. Take it or leave it.
    Ill take it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    When you point out the logical fallacy, that's all well and good, makes your point, and is not refutable. When you pepper it with things like "flying spaghetti monster, celestial teapots, unicorns" it comes across as degrading and insulting. Your message gets lost, as does your victory in the part of debate. All the other hears is that you are being insulting. I will say what I always say: PRESENTATION IS EVERYTHING. You are placing the blame, solely on the listener. You have a part in it.
    I agree that a big part of communication is knowing your audience, however I will not accept undue guilt. The purpose of the flying spaghetti monster is to provide a simple example of why an argument ad ignorantiam is not convincing.

    Lots of people hear what they want to hear, or have knee jerk reactions to certain notions. If a woman asks me if I find her overweight, and I say no, and she turns that into "So you think I'm too skinny?!?" That is HER FAULT and hers alone.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Now, I recognize that the more "rabid" amongst the religious are just as degrading and insulting as I accuse rabid atheists of being. But often you are not debating the rabid. I'd say, save the aggression for them.

    Just some feedback. Do as you will with it.
    I only get nasty in response to nasty, if you can point out a single post I've made to anyone where I was the 1st one to sling insults, and I can't find an earlier post that warranted said insult, I would gladly write them an apology and CC you on.

    I've been on DP all day, and trust me I've been dealing with quite a few people who were insulting from the start.

    Only one of them was willing to go back and review who "started it" (UtahBill) and since then our debate has become far less venomous.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    For the record? I am an eclectic pagan with a fondness for various types of religion. Any and all religions fascinate me.. I think they should all be respected too..

    But.. I get so sick of whiners and certain Christians trying to act as if others are trying to take over this country and their religion. First of all: this country was NOT founded on their religion. Second of all: We all have freedom of religion and should all respect each other.

    I think what people get sick of is this constant Christian crap where they wish for their religion to be in our stores, our courtrooms, our schools, over our public airways, etc. This is NOT a country founded on Christianity so the holy rollers need to get used to it and learn how to deal with a country that is a melting pot of various religions.

    Also Christianity is a rip off of Zoroastrism.. Zoroastrism created the first "Satan".. It just really annoys me that people blindly follow along like sheep and really know nothing about their religion and are blinded by such extreme dogma that they just are like Robots!

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I'm sorry I should have been clearer, when I said "the literature" I thought you would understand that I meant peer review science journal, rather than the often misconstrued version that the public gets from "journalists" seeking sound bites.
    Unfortunately the average Joe does not read science journals and this is what causes the problem. 99.9% of the human race will never read a science journal. The perceptions they have are molded by things like an encyclopedia.

    I also doubt the writers of an encyclopedia are all that concerned with "seeking sound bites."

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