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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

  1. #381
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I'm not trying to debate, I already gave the information for reading to another poster on the matter.
    And yet when I asked you TWICE in which posts I could find said information you refused to. Only telling me that you posted something which would support your claim, is a bit like telling me that you already cited court cases to me, which you didn't. Or its like citing a book or a letter saying that somewhere in there is the answer to my alleged misunderstanding, and yet you refuse to quote it for me, or even tell me where to look.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Nice try, Wikipedia:Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In other words, and educated guess.

    Really, See right here.
    Oh wow how sad that I have to quote your own source for you, you should have read the rest silly boy. What you quoted was the "broader use" of the term, you should have scrolled down to the scientific meaning, which is why I specifically said "in the scientific sense."

    Science

    [edit] Casual Usage

    In science the word theory is not a synonym of "fact"
    . For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet but we invoke theories of gravity to explain this occurrence. However, even inside the sciences the word theory picks out several different concepts dependent on the context. In casual speech scientists don't use the term theory in a particularly precise fashion, allowing historical accidents to determine whether a given body of scientific work is called a theory, law, principle or something else. For instance Einstein's relativity is usually called "the theory of relativity" while Newton's theory of gravity often is called "the law of gravity." In this kind of casual use by scientists the word theory can be used flexibly to refer to whatever kind of explanation or prediction is being examined. It is for this instance that a scientific theory is a claim based on a body of evidence.

    [edit] Philosophical Conception

    This is in considerable contrast to the more philosophical context where a scientific theory is understood to be a testable model capable of predicting future occurrences or observations and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. As with most things in philosophy there is considerable debate as to whether this is really the correct concept to use in describing scientific research. For instance many definitions also add the constrain that a theory describes the natural world, though it is often unclear whether this is a definition of natural world or a constraint on what can be a theory. Note that this concept specifically does not require that a theory be particularly well supported or have any justification whatsoever. A major concern in this philosophical context is the problem of demarcation, i.e., distinguishing those ideas that are properly studied by the sciences and those that are not. Intuitively one might suppose that it doesn't matter where a suggestion came from, when it was made, or if it was ever well supported by the evidence to whether it's the sort of thing that scientists ought to consider (e.g. test or dismiss as already tested). Unsurprisingly, therefore, this concept of a scientific theory tends to apply equally to justified and unjustified predictions [3]. In other words the term theory is used so that it encompasses what might be commonly called a hypothesis.

    [edit] Pedagogical Definition

    Finally, in pedagogical contexts or in official pronouncements by official organizations of scientists one gets a definition like the following.

    According to the United States National Academy of Sciences,

    Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena, [4]

    A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.
    Now you can learn the difference, how embarrassing that your own source proves you wrong tho.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    A theory is an educated guess, I guess you didn't do all that well in science did you.
    Actually I got straight A's in my science classes, and wrote an essay on foolish laypersons who do not understand that a theory does not mean a guess in the scientific sense, like you

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Just testing the level of commitment here, not debating.
    This is a debate forum.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 12-15-08 at 01:09 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  2. #382
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    I will never understand why certain atheists (most are very reasonable) deem it necessary to be insulting? Don't get me wrong in that I know it works both ways, but it is really just silly at this point. Why can't people just think for themselves and not be called "stupid" because they disagree on religion?

  3. #383
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Now you can learn the difference, how embarrassing that your own source proves you wrong tho.
    He is correct to a point.

    Some scientific theory's are not forgone conclusions or facts in and of themselves. They are, or can be supported by good evidence and solid facts within the theory itself and still be found to be wrong later on. It can be wrong in part (most common) or completely off base (almost never.)

    Any scientist worth his metal would not say any theory is a proven fact. He would say the evidence points here.

  4. #384
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I will never understand why certain atheists (most are very reasonable) deem it necessary to be insulting? Don't get me wrong in that I know it works both ways, but it is really just silly at this point. Why can't people just think for themselves and not be called "stupid" because they disagree on religion?
    Who called anyone stupid because the disagree?
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    He is correct to a point.

    Some scientific theory's are not forgone conclusions or facts in and of themselves. They are, or can be supported by good evidence and solid facts within the theory itself and still be found to be wrong later on. It can be wrong in part (most common) or completely off base (almost never.)
    This is true, evolution gets revised all the time when better evidence is discovered. Because the theory has predictive value, its easy to imagine something that would prove it wrong (a rabbit in the precambrian for example)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Any scientist worth his metal would not say any theory is a proven fact. He would say the evidence points here.
    This is true, in fact as a general rule scientists don't use the word "fact" at all. They say evidence, hypothesis, law, theory or principle, and most importantly "unproven and unfalsifiable hypothesis with no predictive value."

    It really says it all doesn't it?
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 12-15-08 at 01:51 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Who called anyone stupid because the disagree?
    Nobody here as far as I know. It was a general statement from a lifetime of debating.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Nobody here as far as I know. It was a general statement from a lifetime of debating.
    Oh I see, well there are two atheists on this board who are "strong atheists" and insult people, but for the most part everyone else is quite reasonable...

    In my experience its the believer who takes offense where there is none, and cannot understand the difference between "you're wrong here's why" and "you're stupid because you're wrong."

    Or more commonly is when one reads "your idea is illogical, your fallacy is X" but their brain hears "you are incapable of logic, a moron, and I think I'm smarter than you."

    I think its because most people are under the impression that its alright to criticize ones opinions about politics, history, current events, etc... but never their supernatural beliefs. Those beliefs are "sacred" to them and often the underlying premise in their whole worldview.

    You wouldn't believe how many times people confuse my skepticism with cynicism, or my certainty and tone with arrogance.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 12-15-08 at 01:59 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    This is true, evolution gets revised all the time when better evidence is discovered. Because the theory has predictive value, its easy to imagine something that would prove it wrong (a rabbit in the precambrian for example)
    Yep. In fact they just found some new fossil that has thrown the theory into an uproar again about the Cambrian explosion/radiation.

    Lets not get off topic with evolutionary debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    This is true, in fact as a general rule scientists don't use the word "fact" at all. They say evidence, hypothesis, law, theory or principle, and most importantly "unproven and unfalsifiable hypothesis with no predictive value."

    It really says it all doesn't it?
    It does, but it still makes many cases just an educated guess.

  9. #389
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    The only people getting angry and violent are the religious...
    Though not violent, read the thread and you'll see the non-religious getting angry and nasty. Which leads me to this:

    Moderator's Warning:
    Atheists take aim at ChristmasPlease cease the nastiness and attacks. I see several coming from Lachean, and a few others, and they need to end, now.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It does, but it still makes many cases just an educated guess.
    I guarantee you nowhere in the literature will any official scientific document from any study or research use the word "theory" in reference to a mere educated guess; The NAS wouldn't have it, and I cant imagine any journal publishing it. Any such "educated guess" would be regarded as a "new controversial hypothesis"

    I was with you when you said it didn't mean fact, and that theories are not foregone conclusions, they change and revise and get better; That is the beauty of science.

    But I'm going to have to ask you for a source for that above claim, where the author used the word "theory" to mean educated guess.

    EDIT: By that I mean, no where in recent decades. Things were alot different in the days of Newton.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 12-15-08 at 02:10 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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