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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

  1. #341
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    [QUOTE=LaMidRighter;1057847489]
    First of all, the first logical fallacy in this is the absolutism of the first amendment, the SCOTUS has already ruled that certain speech is NOT protected, like fighting words, incitement to riot, obscenity, libel, and defamation, you are taking an absolutist stance. Secondly, attacking people's core beliefs right next to a symbol of their core beliefs can be seen as an attack(fighting words) and if said people who felt attacked decided to riot, the onus would most likely be on those who started it, that is, the people who put an atheist slogan right next to a manger scene(incitement to riot), so, it could be seen by those who felt attacked and law enforcement as unprotected speech under the correct circumstances. Third, why attack people in that manner, anyone who believes in decency could make the call you are questioning, who are YOU to judge people's opinions?
    So putting a nativity scene on the lawn of my courthouse isn't attacking my core beliefs?

    It was in horrendous taste and the people who put it up should be ashamed of themselves.
    Are you talking about the xians who are determined to have their religious displays on government (ie. mine) property? I wonder how far away the nearest church is to that piece of public property?

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The one's bringing the lawsuits are the one's who are rude. No symbol affected you in any way. No symbol established a national religion or gave and existing religion municipal power, so no symbol ever violated the 1st amendment.

    And no, acknowledgment does not violate the 1st amendment, only establishment does. No again, the presence of a symbol does not establish a single thing. Acknowledgment is merely a cultural vestige and nothing more.
    I disagree, by allowing religious symbols to be placed on public property the government is saying we support this religion above others. The government would have to allow every religion to put up their symbols too and then of course what if someone's religious scene obscured another's? The simple solution is to not allow ANY religious symbols on public property. How can you deny this simple statement of reason?

  3. #343
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Symbols do not violate the fist amendment. Not at all. Not when they accurately represent the population of that religion, not when they disproportionately represent the population, not ever.
    Are you joking Jerry? To put up a Nativity scene, or any other Christian symbol, on every or any courthouse lawn is absolutely the state respecting an establishment of religion.

    Even if this country were 100% Christian that would still be true, your appeal to the population is a blatant logical fallacy here. The constitution says what it says no matter how many Christians there are.

    I have no issue with allowing, say, 1 square centimeter per documented practitioner of a given religion, as recorded by the US Census burro, if you are arguing for fair representation.
    That is awful Jerry, I can think of several issues with that. Primarily that there I doubt most pubic institutions have 3 million square meters to offer up for religious purposes.

    Secondly, The nature of the universe cannot be determined by popular vote, and such a measure would simply reward the larger faiths and punish the smaller ones. Surely you understand that the separation of Church and State is also about protecting the Church right? Do you really want to bully those faiths of fewer following? What if your particular kind of Christianity isn't the majority?
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  4. #344
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post


    My, they look smug.
    Here's hoping the next four years wipe those smirks off their faces.

  6. #346
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    My, they look smug.
    Here's hoping the next four years wipe those smirks off their faces.
    There are many religious people in this country on both sides, what's your point?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  7. #347
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    If it's all so petty and meaningless then why do xians insist on it?

    People are not smart for the most part, due mostly to lack of education and/or decent education.
    Education doesn't make one smart, it makes them educated, big difference. I know a lot of smart high school graduates who are more useful to society than many of my fellow alums.

    Religious people have places, lots of them, to put their symbols on. Their nativity scenes can be scaled to be as large or as small as they deem appropriate in those places and they don't even have to pay taxes for those places, it's free for them.
    If the community funded it it isn't free, their taxes paid for it.
    So why do they insist on having them on property I help pay for?
    So find enough representation for your beliefs
    And let's not kid ourselves about the establishment of religion shall we? I think we all know what's been going on in our country for more than 200 years and it's the toning down of that practice that's making xians scream and cry.
    We have a freedom OF not FROM religion, the establishment clause is simply there to insure that you don't go to prison for not being of a certain belief, not to be confused with your "right" to not have to see religious symbols you disagree with, if you don't like the sybol that the community paid for you are free to turn your head, why would you as a minority opinion want to go against the will of the majority in a community for something they have a right to.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  8. #348
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    [QUOTE][QUOTE=Slippery Slope;1057848444]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    So putting a nativity scene on the lawn of my courthouse isn't attacking my core beliefs?
    Not unless they say something inflamatory along with it, is your core belief so shaky that someone else's representation of their beliefs makes you uncomfortable? I could see if the nativity scene was placed next to an athiest or scientology sign that was there first, but the case we are discussing is the exact opposite.


    Are you talking about the xians who are determined to have their religious displays on government (ie. mine) property?
    Government of the people, not government of the person, government property isn't "yours" but the majority of people happen to be christian, so it is represented as such, I don't even care about the sign that was put up in this story, it was the time, place, and manner which are disgusting.
    I wonder how far away the nearest church is to that piece of public property?
    That doesn't matter to the discussion.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    I disagree, by allowing religious symbols to be placed on public property the government is saying we support this religion above others.
    No, they aren't, they are representing the people of that faith, in no way are you compelled by the government to believe that or look at the symbol.
    The government would have to allow every religion to put up their symbols too and then of course what if someone's religious scene obscured another's?
    Time, place, manner, if all symbols had to be included they may be included with RESPECT to each other.
    The simple solution is to not allow ANY religious symbols on public property. How can you deny this simple statement of reason?
    Because it isn't reasonable, the fact is that if the majority of the community are barred their religious expression then the first as it was written has been violated.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Not unless they say something inflamatory along with it, is your core belief so shaky that someone else's representation of their beliefs makes you uncomfortable? I could see if the nativity scene was placed next to an athiest or scientology sign that was there first, but the case we are discussing is the exact opposite.
    Yet it is the Christians who are up in arms...
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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