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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

  1. #121
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think it represents companies starting to understand their consumer base a little bit more. And what does it matter anyway? Not everyone is Christian, companies know that now.
    Well, I'd say that companies always knew that. It's not like the concept that "Not everyone is Christian" just revealed itself yesterday.

    Second, what's it matter if not everyone is not Christian? Is wishing someone a Merry Christmas somehow offensive? Maybe considering how we have had to reform how we speak lest we trample someone's delicate sensibilities.

    Companies don't care what religion you are, they merely want your money. So they are obviously going to start moving in ways which are more inclusive of a larger set of people as to not alienate them.
    I'm not sure how Target using "Merry Christmas" would alienate someone. Would displaying "Merry Christmas" cause someone to leave their store? Maybe. But what we do know is that large numbers of people are boycotting Target simply for not permitting the Salvation Army to ring their bells outside their doors.

    I
    don't get all the hubbub. Things don't stay the same forever, things always change. Stagnation is bad, it's slow death. So companies now are trying to do things which include more of their customer base. Big deal, I'd expect companies to move in that direction. It's not bowing to political pressure or PC crap or any of that. It's private companies changing policy to be more inclusive; that's it.
    I don't see it being inclusive. People weren't boycotting stores for using "Merry Christmas." It's intentionally excluding the very basis for this season.

    But I agree, it's a private firm's private decision. However, that doesn't immunize them from criticism.

  2. #122
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    BTW - I love the Holiday that shall not be named these so many have adopted at this time of year. I mean, if not celebrating Christmas, then what the heck is being celebrated?

    What do the American people say?

    Well, in 2005, according to CNN: 69% of Americans now prefer "Merry Christmas," to just 29% who prefer "Happy Holidays," with 61% of Americans saying the use of "Happy Holidays" in stores and public institutions represented a change for the worse.

    In 2007, according to Rasmussen Reports : 67% of American adults like stores to use the phrase "Merry Christmas" in their seasonal advertising rather than "Happy Holidays." A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that just 26% prefer the Happy Holidays line.

    So much for the argument that using "Happy Holidays" is just being more inclusive.

  3. #123
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Well, I'd say that companies always knew that. It's not like the concept that "Not everyone is Christian" just revealed itself yesterday.

    Second, what's it matter if not everyone is not Christian? Is wishing someone a Merry Christmas somehow offensive? Maybe considering how we have had to reform how we speak lest we trample someone's delicate sensibilities.
    While it has been known for quite some time, I think maybe we're just getting out of a time when Christianity is considered dominate and the only religion in this country worth acknowledging. As I said, things change. I think people have become well more open to the concept of differing religions, and more so than just the different flavors of Christianity which already existed. People have become well more tolerant and aware. And as people's perception changes, the stores whom cater to them change as well to reflect that change in perception.

    I don't think people were necessarily offended by Merry Christmas even if not Christian. I think that people just thought it'd be nice to include everyone, since you can't tell religion (usually) by external appearances, they've decided to adopt rhetoric that is more inclusive to the whole. I don't think any of this is forced. I think it's just that society and people have changed, and in a capitalistic nation; business will always change to reflect that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I'm not sure how Target using "Merry Christmas" would alienate someone. Would displaying "Merry Christmas" cause someone to leave their store? Maybe. But what we do know is that large numbers of people are boycotting Target simply for not permitting the Salvation Army to ring their bells outside their doors.
    I doubt many would boycott over the use of Merry Christmas. I'm just saying, I don't think this to be a forced decision. I think companies reviewed their policy and changed it. I'm sure that if for some reason our society as a whole was very hostile towards all other religions except Christianity, that you'd never hear a store say Happy Holidays or whatever, it'd always be Merry Christmas. But we're a rather open and tolerant people, and as such the companies have looked at what they had been doing and decided that it would be better to change it. There's nothing really wrong with what they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I don't see it being inclusive. People weren't boycotting stores for using "Merry Christmas." It's intentionally excluding the very basis for this season.

    But I agree, it's a private firm's private decision. However, that doesn't immunize them from criticism.
    Maybe you don't see it as being more inclusive because you were in a group that was already included. People may not have been boycotting, but I think it's a bit nicer to wish all people well, regardless of religion. And the companies just adopted rhetoric that didn't speak to specific religion but still portrayed the overall feeling. There wasn't anything wrong, and I don't see anything forced. I am usually set well against the PC movement, but I don't particularly see their fangs in this specific issue.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    I've heard some folks say there should be an aetheist holiday that they can celebrate however they like and leave CHRISTMAS alone.

    Their day could be April 1st.

    I agree with both ideas.

    OBL 11/24/02

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    So much for the argument that using "Happy Holidays" is just being more inclusive.
    I think a lot of resistance comes from the group which was already acknowledged having a problem with other groups being promoted to their circle. I'd like to see how that poll broke down across religious lines and if it took account of that as well.

    In terms of inclusiveness, Happy Holidays is of course more inclusive than Merry Christmas; as Happy Holidays can encompass all religions where as Merry Christmas encompasses only one. It doesn't have to mean that everyone would necessarily like being more inclusive; which is what your poll shows. Not that Happy Holidays isn't more inclusive, but rather that some would rather it not be more inclusive.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #126
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    While it has been known for quite some time, I think maybe we're just getting out of a time when Christianity is considered dominate and the only religion in this country worth acknowledging.
    Huh? Until just recently this country felt that Christianity was the dominate culture group and the only religion worth acknowledging?

    As I said, things change. I think people have become well more open to the concept of differing religions,
    This happened, uh, like, 200 years ago...no?

    and more so than just the different flavors of Christianity which already existed. People have become well more tolerant and aware. And as people's perception changes, the stores whom cater to them change as well to reflect that change in perception.
    I don't think retailers are changing to Happy Holidays as a reflection of their perception that Americans are becoming more tolerant.

    I don't think people were necessarily offended by Merry Christmas even if not Christian. I think that people just thought it'd be nice to include everyone, since you can't tell religion (usually) by external appearances, they've decided to adopt rhetoric that is more inclusive to the whole. I don't think any of this is forced. I think it's just that society and people have changed, and in a capitalistic nation; business will always change to reflect that.
    I don't see how wishing shoppers a "Merry Christmas" would exclude anyone.

    But we're a rather open and tolerant people,
    Not according to people like Michelle Obama, Jeremiah Wright, Jess Jackson, Harry Reid, et al.

    and as such the companies have looked at what they had been doing and decided that it would be better to change it. There's nothing really wrong with what they did.
    Good for you. However, for people who see this as a further watering down of our culture simply for the sake of maulticulturalism (in other words, destroying American culture), well, it's a big deal, obviously.

  7. #127
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I don't see how wishing shoppers a "Merry Christmas" would exclude anyone.
    Except for the people who don't celebrate Christmas.

    Good for you. However, for people who see this as a further watering down of our culture simply for the sake of maulticulturalism (in other words, destroying American culture), well, it's a big deal, obviously.
    I hate to be the one to tell you, but American culture is multi-culturalism.

  8. #128
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    Except for the people who don't celebrate Christmas.
    Oh? So we're going to say Happy Holidays to include that, what, less than 5 percent of people, who don't celebrate Christmas? I mean, who is not celebrating Christmas, i.e., decorating, shopping, etc?

    I hate to be the one to tell you, but American culture is multi-culturalism.
    What does this mean?

    Are you referring to the myth of the American melting pot?

  9. #129
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Oh? So we're going to say Happy Holidays to include that, what, less than 5 percent of people, who don't celebrate Christmas? I mean, who is not celebrating Christmas, i.e., decorating, shopping, etc?
    Oh, come on! It's more than 5 percent of people. What about Jewish people?

    This is the thing, I could see your argument completely if one culture or religion said "Christianity! You've had the limelight far too long! It's our turn!! From now on, all Merry Christmas signs will read Happy Hannukah!" However, no one is doing that. They are just using a more inclusive slogan that includes everyone, even Christians. Why is that such a big deal? Are Christians such big babies that they can't stand to share the holiday limelight with other cultures or religions?

    What does this mean?

    Are you referring to the myth of the American melting pot?


    Are you actually suggesting that the American melting pot is a myth?!

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    I have been searching for decades for those evil Christians who are shoving crosses down people's throats; and with all that time, still can't find any.

    Sometimes, I think overly sensitive agnostics and atheists think that some Mormons knocking on your door are somehow threatening you with Christianity and huddle behind their doors in abject fear.

    I have found that just by opening the door and kindly saying, no thank you, I am a long time Devil Worshipper; I have NO problems with them leaving with a polite goodbye.

    Well actually, I don't say that; but they have never tried to shove a cross down my throat when I politely say I am not interested. I think the hype about Christians forcing their views on society is rabid paranoia from those who think THIER views should be shoved down everyone elseís throats.

    Great examples of it are abundant; my own little town of Ventura is a great example. For decades, there was a cross on the hillside on public parkland. It had been donated to the city and placed in the park. (going strictly by memory here but the facts are the same)

    Then one day, an atheist saw the cross as an effrontery that was unacceptable; apparently in his paranoia, he thought that a gang of Christian monsters would one day come to town, discover his atheism and force that HUGE cross down his throat.

    He took the city to court and demanded that the cross be taken down and that it was a violation of his Constitutional right to not have to look at crosses and attempted to force an entire city to cede to his paranoia. The issue was finally resolved when the citizens of Ventura, almost ALL of them, formed a coalition to save the cross and donated money to buy the parcel of land the cross sat on which the city was more than happy to parcel off and sell. The cross now sits on private property and now can be legally left standing as a free speech thingy.

    This happened a few years ago, and to this date at least, no Christian monsters have come to the town and attempted to shove this cross down this paranoid atheistís throat.

    Serra Cross Park

    Carry on.

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