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Thread: Atheists take aim at Christmas

  1. #101
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Yeah, I hope its fake
    Hell no! It's twice as funny if it's real.

    "Atheism.... It starts in your brain, then moves to your heart, then goes back to your brain again and then it enters your mind"

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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You could choose just about ANY date and it would have conflicted with SOME pre-existing holiday. Did you notice that the December 25th date is exactly NINE MONTHS after the Annunciation? Didn't think so. Ever heard of Hannakuh? Next, you are going to tell me that Easter is pagan in origin too.
    Look up the solstices. Furthermore, your argument fails to deal with the issues of the catholics trying to convert huge masses of pagans.

    Care to elucidate on the traditions that were "stolen" and explain the alleged religious significance of said traditions?
    1) Christmas trees are either Pagan Roman or Druid in origin as is decorating them
    2) Mistletoe is a pagan dutch symbol for fertility as it represents the testicles of a Verile bull
    3) Presents originated from Pagan Russia
    4) Santa comes from the Pagan Russia character of similar nature
    5) Bell ringing came from pagan rituals to expel evil spirits

    That's just the tip of the iceberg.

    WHat are we celebrating on December 25? The birth of the Son of God. The traditional date for that celebration is exactly nine months after the Annunciation to Mary. Hint - It is generally held that a woman's normal term is about nine months.
    Nevermind the Church's desire to covert the masses of pagans who were celebrating their holidays during the same time and did so well before Christanity came around (or Judaism for that matter).

    I could say the same of you.
    All you have is scripture. I actually have history. Along with the context of what the Church was trying to do at the time.

    So? Average high temperature in Jerusalem in December is the upper 50s. Not cold. If it wasn't winter, why was field labor suspended?
    Uh, field labor wasn't suspended. What are you talking about?

    Why do I care what a bunch of bigoted, intolerant Puritans did?
    So now their views as Christians don't matter?

    Apparently Christians in power in history don't matter when they don't agree to your view points. lol.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  3. #103
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    John the Baptist was actually the individual born in March, not Jesus. Biblical and historical record places Jesus's birth sometime in Fall , most likely September.
    What Biblical record? There is no date given in the Bible. What historical record?

    Remember, Catholics don't place great importance on the actual date, but the date wasn't chosen at random. The Annunciation is on March 25 (a date with some Biblical support) and Christmas is celebrated nine months later. The CCC does not mention a date, indicating that the actual date is NOT important. The reason and message are what IS important.

    Shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at night at the time of Jesus' birth [Luke 2:7-8].
    As temperatures become freezing in Judea in the winter time and weather is quite harsh at times shepherds are in shelter and not out grazing their flocks in the dead of winter. It is more likely that Jesus was not born in the winter taking this fact into consideration.
    It isn't THAT cold in Judea in December. The average high temperature in Jerusalem in December is in the upper 50s and the low is in the lower 40s. Remember, low temperatures are typically in the half hour after dawn, so that the temperature in the early evening would be considerbly warmer than the lower forties. Also, we don't know the temperature that particular year. It could have been even warmer. The argument that it was freezing and the actions of shepards aren't consisent with such weather does not wash.


    Jesus' parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census [Luke 2:1-4].
    Though no census is ever recorded by Roman historians the Romans would have most likely not called for such a census during the winter, forcing thousands of people to traverse the lands in harsh and deadly weather when they could do so in the summer.
    On what basis? Did the Romans have a history of considering the needs of subject peoples, especially one they rather despised? Also, again, the weather isn't THAT bad.


    We know Mary was in her sixth month of pregnancy when John the Baptist was born to Elizabeth and Zacharias [Luke 1:24-36].
    So if we figure out when John was born we can find the month Jesus was born in. John's father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah [Luke 1:5] and it was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that his wife Elizabeth would have a child and after his service he traveled home and conceived John [Luke 1:8-13;22-24]. Historical calculations indicate this course of service corresponded to June of that year (late Sivan/early Tammuz). So if we take into account Zacharias did indeed return home right after this service then John was most likely conceived end of June/early July, so John was most likely born in March. Adding another six months, as Mary was 3 months pregnant at John's birth, Jesus would have been born in September.

    I can also quote Iranaeus (disciple of Polycarp) and Eusebius ("father of Church history") as placing Jesus's birth in the Fall. But I think you get the point.

    The fact is the Council of Nicea moved Jesus's birthday to December 25 to easy the conversion of Roman Mithraists to Christianity.
    Remember, Catholics don't hold the date to be of vital importance. Christmas is about remember why we celebrate our faith and remembering the birth of He who founded it. It isn't even our most important holiday. I present the argument below not as a validation of the date being important, but as an academic exercise. As I have said before, scholars are not in unanimous agreement.

    The Gospel According to Luke gives us the most information regarding the Birth of Jesus. In Luke 1:26, it says "In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, (27) to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the House of David." Measureing the Jewish Calendar from Rosh Hoshanna, the sixth month frequently falls in March in the modern solar calandar. This is the time we celebrate the Annunciation.

    Luke 1:31: "Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus." It says WILL conceive. The conception has not happened yet. If we assume that the conception occurred shortly thereafter, it would be safe to assume that the birt occurred approximately nine months after the Annunciation. That would put the date of the birth of Christ in mid to late December.

    I am not presenting this as authoriative, merely another interpretation. Frankly, once again it is not important to me the actual date of the birth of Christ. We simply do not know. What IS important, is to celebrate our Faith. We also need to remember the importance of not only Faith, but Love and Charity. This is the true meaning of the Christmas season. We should practice it year-round, but Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter provides us cause to remember what we should truly practice as Christians.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    I am not sure I understand what is so offensive about the sign. Here is what it reads:

    At this season of
    THE WINTER SOLSTICE
    may reason prevail.

    There are no gods.
    no devils. no angels.
    no heaven or hell.
    There is only
    our natural world.
    Religion is but
    myth and superstition
    that hardens hearts
    and enslaves minds.
    Though it disagree with the message, it isn't offensive to me. What IS offensive is that they are specifically targeting our second most importand holiday, putting it beside nativity scenes, and putting them near churches. Spread your message - I have no problem with that - but remember I will also spread mine and I have an equal right to do so.


    As for the offensiveness of the nativity scene: It is. It represents the manipulative story of Christ. This story's subject is only necessary in the event that humankind is corrupt. So, tied up in the nativity scene is the insult that I am corrupt along with the rest of humankind. It is likewise condescending.

    The Christian display is sneaky, because it conceals it's message behind the cloak of a peaceful scene with charming baby.

    The Atheist sign is more direct, and so what?
    SAdly, mankind IS corrupt. I see evidence of it each and every day. If you don't, you must be suffering from Ostrich Syndrome.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Look up the solstices. Furthermore, your argument fails to deal with the issues of the catholics trying to convert huge masses of pagans.
    Catholics were trying to convert people, so?!?!? Mormons try to convert people every day. Fortunately, they have met with much less success than the Catholics have.

    1) Christmas trees are either Pagan Roman or Druid in origin as is decorating them
    When did Christmas trees enter the celebration? Try 16th century! What is their liturgical purpose? Are they used universally?

    2) Mistletoe is a pagan dutch symbol for fertility as it represents the testicles of a Verile bull
    Same as one.

    3) Presents originated from Pagan Russia
    Wrong, it originated with the wise men giving gifts to JEsus.

    4) Santa comes from the Pagan Russia character of similar nature
    Wrong. It is a reference to Saint Nicholas, a real man who lived in 4th century Asia Minor who was noted for his generosity.

    5) Bell ringing came from pagan rituals to expel evil spirits
    Bell ringing has a long history of use in Jewish traditions. That is silly. Many different cultures use bells for different reasons. Just because Pagans use them, that means no one else can?

    Care to try again?




    Nevermind the Church's desire to covert the masses of pagans who were celebrating their holidays during the same time and did so well before Christanity came around (or Judaism for that matter).



    All you have is scripture. I actually have history. Along with the context of what the Church was trying to do at the time.



    Uh, field labor wasn't suspended. What are you talking about?



    So now their views as Christians don't matter?

    Apparently Christians in power in history don't matter when they don't agree to your view points. lol.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by ludahai; 12-07-08 at 07:14 PM.
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  6. #106
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    Question Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Look up the solstices. Furthermore, your argument fails to deal with the issues of the catholics trying to convert huge masses of pagans.



    1) Christmas trees are either Pagan Roman or Druid in origin as is decorating them
    2) Mistletoe is a pagan dutch symbol for fertility as it represents the testicles of a Verile bull
    3) Presents originated from Pagan Russia
    4) Santa comes from the Pagan Russia character of similar nature
    5) Bell ringing came from pagan rituals to expel evil spirits

    That's just the tip of the iceberg.



    Nevermind the Church's desire to covert the masses of pagans who were celebrating their holidays during the same time and did so well before Christanity came around (or Judaism for that matter).



    All you have is scripture. I actually have history. Along with the context of what the Church was trying to do at the time.



    Uh, field labor wasn't suspended. What are you talking about?



    So now their views as Christians don't matter?

    Apparently Christians in power in history don't matter when they don't agree to your view points. lol.
    Simple question: If you could end the Christian celebration of Christmas, would you?

    Yes or no
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  7. #107
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    So athieism in not a belief system to you, yet here some of them are acting like it is.... go figger....
    I act like weed is legal. Doesn't mean it is. What exactly is your point here? Somebody 'acting' whatever the hell that means, proves something? If I act like there is no God does that prove there is no God? Get to the point 'Rev'.

    "baptists" funny, most "baptists" I know believe no such thing., were you lying and going for shock value or were you being ignorantly bigoted?

    Oh so your experience voids what is basically the unspoken status quo? Alright then I guess the voices of talking heads like Jerry Falwell who command then attentions of millions of religious people in this country mean nothing then :

    Really?

    Jerry Falwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    After the September 11, 2001 attacks, Falwell said on The 700 Club, "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" Fellow evangelist Pat Robertson concurred with his sentiment.[35] After heavy criticism, Falwell apologized,[29] though he later said that he stood by his statement, stating, "if we decide to change all the rules on which this Judeo-Christian nation was built, we cannot expect the Lord to put his shield of protection around us as he has in the past."[30]
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  8. #108
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I am not presenting this as authoriative, merely another interpretation. Frankly, once again it is not important to me the actual date of the birth of Christ. We simply do not know. What IS important, is to celebrate our Faith. We also need to remember the importance of not only Faith, but Love and Charity. This is the true meaning of the Christmas season. We should practice it year-round, but Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter provides us cause to remember what we should truly practice as Christians.
    That's quite a contradiction from your last post. You seemed quite adamant that Jesus was conceived in March and born on December 25. If you truly believe it doesn't matter then I won't respond to your rebuttal as it would be a pointless tangent to the discussion.

    I share the opinion the date really doesn't matter. I also don't have a problem with the Council of Nicea moving the birth to December 25 to help convert Roman pagans. It was a smart move and a requirement to transition Rome from paganism to Christianity.
    Last edited by Gibberish; 12-08-08 at 12:10 AM.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Look up the solstices. Furthermore, your argument fails to deal with the issues of the catholics trying to convert huge masses of pagans.

    my wifes family is Catholic, i have not seen them try to convert anyone. Hell they are more inclined to not include you than to convert you.


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    Re: Atheists take aim at Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I act like weed is legal. Doesn't mean it is. What exactly is your point here? Somebody 'acting' whatever the hell that means, proves something? If I act like there is no God does that prove there is no God? Get to the point 'Rev'.

    I think you need to put down the bong for once. your drug use is not a badge of honor pops.



    Oh so your experience voids what is basically the unspoken status quo? Alright then I guess the voices of talking heads like Jerry Falwell who command then attentions of millions of religious people in this country mean nothing then :

    Not really. Falwell has no affect on me, my ordination, my family, or anyone I know.... you seem to let him get to you......





    Really, you act like the bigot when you infer that these guys speak for all of baptists.....


    Jeffrey Dahmer blamed his athiesm for his crimes. does he speak for you?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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