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Thread: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Sorry but that isn't proof he is the next Hitler, like you try and spread fear of.

    And if his country wants that it is up to them, not you.

    Again, you have nothing but your paranoia and hatred for Chavez.
    A typical liberal reaction to a serious threat.

    It's GOOD EVIDENCE of his INTENT. Why can you not seem to get that threw your head.

    He is almost an EXACT DUPLICATE of Hitler. Indefinate power is BAD.

    It's rather ignorant of you to assume that allowing a dictator to get into power would have no effect on this country.

    Clearly, you have NO CLUE what constitutes a threat. Clearly, you are not looking at the BIG picture.

    You can make all the excuses you want for your side; however, there is no question at all that your side is WRONG.

    If Chavez goes unchecked, he WILL become a dictator. This has MANY international implications.

    I challenge you to CAREFULLY study Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Ho Chi Min, and the government of China.

    Look at the ways they came to power --- then look at what they did while in power. Then take a total count of all the deaths involved in the time they spent in power.

    DO NOT try to tell me that a dictatorship in that region is NOT a problem for the world.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    DO NOT try to tell me that a dictatorship in that region is NOT a problem for the world.
    No I'm saying you have no idea that there would be one, you just hate Chavez that much. It's clear what your intent is and I am THANKFUL that you are in no position to make these decisions. cheers.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I'm not saying we need to invade as much as I am saying UN needs to sanction Venesueala harshly until Chavez is out of power and all Russian naval units are back in Russian sea ports.

    Chavez is nothing more then Hitler in the making. We cannot allow the 3rd reich to rise again.
    Firstly he is not Hitler in the making, that is extremely hyperbolic. He sucks certainly but let's not be completely blinded by ideology and get into absurdities.

    Secondly I'm weary of going down the UN or any interventionist road. I wouldn't completely rule it out but I don't think Chavez warrants the risks of a lot of even non-military interventionism.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post

    However that still does not mean that, this power is given to the minority over the majority of the people, which is what the US system can and has done several times on the presidential stage and even locally. Districts "designed" to give a certain result is so undemocratic that it is laughable.
    I don't know about the local stuff but the US is federal system. The president is not meant to be elected by a majority of the abstract mass of the nation but from the states as they are. To go around this risks weakening the federal system further by circumventing it.





    Not sure it is a good thing on some areas and with the acts and attitudes of some states legislative branches, then one must question if it is wise. After all, if some states had "more" power, then they would ban abortion in a heartbeat, ban homosexuality and so on. If it was not for the "feds" then the US would never have gotten rid of slavery. So yes, let locals run healthcare, taxes, police and so on, but when it comes to basic rights .. hell no.. you should not have different rights as an American just because you are in California and not in Montana. If you want such a system, dissolve the US and make 50 states.
    Firstly slavery would have likely been removed anyway, secondly the civil war was about the union not slavery as Lincoln tried to have Southern slavery written into the constitution.

    Secondly I'm no universalist liberal, I would not destroy federalism because the state's might do something not amazingly important, like ban abortion, that I don't like. It is very hard to be anything but a centralist and believe in a set universalist and strictly rationalist code for all states to live by.

    I am a pragmatist. If something can be better run locally then do it. If something can be better run on a national or state level, then run it there. I dont stick to any ideology based government structure and I am a firm believer that if a government run organisation can be run better and cheaper by private people, then do it, but that does not mean private is better than government all the time.. hardly.
    The problem is that you let ideology run riot over your commitment to decentralism. Now few of us would really condone localised or regional slavery, although the merits of centralised solutions is another matter. But to have set strict univeralist and rationalist model that you want all gov'ts to follow, and if they don't you'd favour using centralised coercion against them is not going to lead anywhere but centralism.
    I am also a firm believer of being fair as possible. That means everyone is equal and given the same chance in life. If you take some legislative stuff to the local (state for example) instead of having the state (federal) write the law, then you risk having a country (provided you still think the US as a single country and not 50 small mini states) split along borders based on what states provide and allow. You can easily have in the US if the states got their way, half the country where being a homosexual is a crime. You can have places where the locals refuse to pay for education for hispanics, or blacks or other people. You can easily have states that think it is "good" to teach their children that the world is flat and god created it, and not teach the facts. Do you really want to live in a society that is that lopsided?
    Indeed you can have this, as long as it isn't too bad though I'm willing to put up with it. If they had segregation or pograms then maybe but I wouldn't weaken the federal system over lack of gay marriage or bans on abortion.

    This is one reason I fear the EU so much. How would the monarchy and CoE fair in its extremely rationalist and universalist grip.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    No I'm saying you have no idea that there would be one, you just hate Chavez that much. It's clear what your intent is and I am THANKFUL that you are in no position to make these decisions. cheers.
    You're just another horribly blind liberal.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    You're just another horribly blind liberal.
    Yes, because I won't buy into your Chavez/Hitler conspiracy nonsense I am blind.

    Whatever. As I said before the majority, thank goodness, do not feel like you and I am glad you and others that think like you are in no position to do anything about it.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I'm saying that if the majority of his country want to keep him in office and they democratically choose to do so, that is up to them to decide.

    I don't think Bush was good for our country, yet I wouldn't support the U.N. putting sanctions on the U.S. just because someone didn't like Bush in charge.
    Well I don't know about the people wanting him to remain, but I don't believe in interfering in a fair democratic election process. Maybe we should send Jimmy Carter over there to monitor it.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    A typical liberal reaction to a serious threat.

    It's GOOD EVIDENCE of his INTENT. Why can you not seem to get that threw your head.

    He is almost an EXACT DUPLICATE of Hitler. Indefinate power is BAD.

    It's rather ignorant of you to assume that allowing a dictator to get into power would have no effect on this country.

    Clearly, you have NO CLUE what constitutes a threat. Clearly, you are not looking at the BIG picture.

    You can make all the excuses you want for your side; however, there is no question at all that your side is WRONG.

    If Chavez goes unchecked, he WILL become a dictator. This has MANY international implications.

    I challenge you to CAREFULLY study Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Ho Chi Min, and the government of China.

    Look at the ways they came to power --- then look at what they did while in power. Then take a total count of all the deaths involved in the time they spent in power.

    DO NOT try to tell me that a dictatorship in that region is NOT a problem for the world.
    And thats the irony of the whole situation. Surely to get rid of Chavez you would have to liberate venuzuleans from the tyranny of their right to vote for who they wish to and put someone in power who they dont want. Surely that person would be a dictator. I challenge you to carefully study, General Pinochet and Carlos Castillo Armas,

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yea and against the majority vote of the people. And you dont find that odd? That someone who more people voted against gets the top job? As for the "state" comment.. just an excuse.
    interesting. actually states' rights are pretty important to some people. see american civil war.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    IMO the US needs to figure out if it is a country or 50 mini states and take the consequence. As it stands now, the political parties can use the "split" to their political favour, may it be getting elected, or getting through legislation over the head of the majority of people. And no I am not against local democracy and as much as possible locally with in reason.
    I'm not sure what "split" you are referring to, unless you mean the privilege given to small states that permits them to have a fair say in the senate and in presidential elections even though they are small. if you do not see the political and historical relevance of states' rights in the united states I'm sure this seems very unfair to you, but the reason the senate was created was to allow states to be represented equally regardless of their population--because states had their own cultural identity independent of the american identity. as a compromise the house of representatives was designed to give states with more people more input, but it was never the intention to have the most populous states determine all of the elections, or the least populous states never would have ratified the constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    No, he wants to be able to stand for the job more than the term limit. That is NOT president for life. Are term limits great? Sure they are and I support them in any society and am against what Chavez is trying to change, but he is not rewriting the constitution to name him and his children as the only legal President. The amount of US anti Chavez propoganda is so funny and clouding the facts.
    I didn't coin the phrase "president for life"--I'm pretty sure those are his own words.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Not qualified? So how involved in democracy have you been? Ever been an election official? Part of a political party? part of a political campaign? Have you voted? I have.. in 2 countries with very different political systems. I am not saying that this makes me all knowing, but it does qualify me at least a bit to discuss political electoral systems around the world, which includes the American.
    certainly, but it doesn't qualify you to answer questions for me that regard my personal life and experience, like "does she even read the newspaper? does she prefer nazi blah blah blah?" I was merely pointing out that asking YOU about ME when we don't even know each other is inefficient and somewhat rude.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    He brings up a very valid point. Your favourite system brought us Bush, the guy who more people voted against than for, and look what his dictatorial leadership has brought us?! A war that should never have happened, an economy in the tanks, curbed individual freedoms, massive waste and corruption and so on.
    I don't think bush is solely responsible for the economy but regardless of all your accusations and whether or not they are true, one disastrous president does not mean the whole system doesn't work. we've had terrible presidents before, look at wilson or whatever, but presidential candidates from both major parties have an equal shot at winning until they open their mouths and neither party is favored by having an electoral vote rather than a popular vote.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Yes, because I won't buy into your Chavez/Hitler conspiracy nonsense I am blind.

    Whatever. As I said before the majority, thank goodness, do not feel like you and I am glad you and others that think like you are in no position to do anything about it.
    It's not nonsense. You're just unwilling to see the threat he posses. This is your failing not mine.

    When Chavez becomes the next Hitler you will be proven wrong and your blindess will be proven.

    I suggest you open your eyes and look at the big picture.

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