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Thread: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Who do you expect Chavez will attack?
    I expect that we will attack those weaker than he is. I do not expect that he will begin full scale invasions anytime soon.

    This doesn not take away from the fact that the path he is on is more than very similar to that which led Adloph Hitler to power in the early 1930s.

    Chavez needs to be prevented from becoming emporer of Venezueala.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I expect that we will attack those weaker than he is. I do not expect that he will begin full scale invasions anytime soon.

    This doesn not take away from the fact that the path he is on is more than very similar to that which led Adloph Hitler to power in the early 1930s.

    Chavez needs to be prevented from becoming emporer of Venezueala.
    I dont see any evidence for that. He,s certainly no precendence. I think the only real threat he poses he that the threat of south americans running there own countrys and economys. Something that washington policy makers have historically found absolutely terrifying. As Jacobo Arbenz found to his peril.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I dont see any evidence for that. He,s certainly no precendence. I think the only real threat he poses he that the threat of south americans running there own countrys and economys. Something that washington policy makers have historically found absolutely terrifying. As Jacobo Arbenz found to his peril.
    I'm sorry you cannot see it. The far left is infamous for their stunning lack of vision.

    Chavez is doing EXACTLY what Hitler did. Hitler sought and achieved ABSOLUTE power. Now, Chavez is doing EXACTLY the same.

    If history has taught us anything. it's that no man, no single person, should have absolute power. No human being is capable of withstanding the corrupting forces of this kind of power.

    Good god man! Open your eyes.

    Look at Zimbaebwe, Mugabe is a rutheless despot, he was ruined that country. His people are starving to death on a massive scale. He has people killed at will.

    This is a constant amoung dicators. Pol Pot, Hitler, Caesar, Kim Jong Ill, Idi Amin, Stalin, Kohmenie, ect ... ALL OF THEM ... ever last one is or was completely corrupted by absolute power.

    Chavez will suffer the same fate. He must be stopped NOW; BEFORE we becomes the world's next Hitler.

    Don't be blinded by bad judgement. See Chavez for the ****bag he is.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I'm sorry you cannot see it. The far left is infamous for their stunning lack of vision.

    Chavez is doing EXACTLY what Hitler did. Hitler sought and achieved ABSOLUTE power. Now, Chavez is doing EXACTLY the same.

    If history has taught us anything. it's that no man, no single person, should have absolute power. No human being is capable of withstanding the corrupting forces of this kind of power.

    Good god man! Open your eyes.

    Look at Zimbaebwe, Mugabe is a rutheless despot, he was ruined that country. His people are starving to death on a massive scale. He has people killed at will.

    This is a constant amoung dicators. Pol Pot, Hitler, Caesar, Kim Jong Ill, Idi Amin, Stalin, Kohmenie, ect ... ALL OF THEM ... ever last one is or was completely corrupted by absolute power.

    Chavez will suffer the same fate. He must be stopped NOW; BEFORE we becomes the world's next Hitler.

    Don't be blinded by bad judgement. See Chavez for the ****bag he is.
    Surprisingly enough im not particually keen on totalitarianism myself. I guess the main thing missing from your argument is any evidence that Chavez has or is seeking absolute power. If terms of any actual threat to the rest of the world I,ld be more worried about Kim il jong or Mugabe.
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 12-13-08 at 08:12 PM.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Surprisingly enough im not particually keen on totalitarianism myself. I guess the main thing missing from your argument is any evidence that Chavez has or is seeking absolute power. If terms of any actual threat to the rest of the world I,ld be more worried about Kim il jong or Mugabe.
    Dave,

    The evidence is in the title of the thread. Chavez seeks INDEFINATE RE-ELECTION again.

    He doesn't want to give up power. Guess what? Neither did Hitler.

    Hitler made sure he could not be removed from power and then he drove Germany to some of the greatest atrocities mankind has ever seen.

    People who seek indefinate power are not planning on doing anything good while in power.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So you are against the basic principle of democracy as we know it today?
    no, I am a proponent of democracy, which is why I value the limitation of power manifested in things like term limits. the will of the majority is important, as are the rights of all citizens, which come into question when the majority puts a dictator into office. I am merely suggesting that democracy in its most direct form can lead to a very unstable political atmosphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Picture running for student body president. You get 60 out of 100 votes, and yet the teachers choose the good looking girl with big boobs, who's father happens to donate big money to the school. Is that fair? That is in principle how Bush got elected in 2000. Is that fair or democratic?
    we are a nation of states. the states cast their electoral votes for bush in 2000.

    imagine you are running for student body president. you easily win all of the female votes in the school, but you've failed to realize that each grade has slightly more males than females. you watch as the 7th grade vote goes to your opponent, followed by the 8th and the 9th, by small margins. ouch.

    you run again in high school. now your school is 55% female, but only because all of the men in the senior class have been drafted into the military. the senior class votes unanimously in your favor, giving you the popular vote, but the overwhelmingly male junior and sophomore class votes go to your opponent, an underclassman who has pledged to make cheerleaders cheer at JV games. the seniors send their class president and VP to student body meetings to ensure that the interests of the female senior class are still addressed even though they did not get the ASB president they wanted.

    /analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Because it is the most fair way? Or do you want to go back to the good old days, where only people of certain stature (aka wealth) have a vote.. or white males over 35? Do you want only people of certain education and wealth to be able to vote?
    no.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    "Scummy" people and abuse of power happens everywhere, regardless if the person in question is elected directly or by a group of non elected people.
    true. but we're talking about taking legal, democratic measures to amend the constitution of venezuela to allow chavez to be "president for life."

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Getting rid of corruption is damn hard, when there is no democracy. You cant get rid of corrupt politicians if the same politicians prevent any plausible competition in running, either by intimidation or by legalities.
    wouldn't you say that abolishing term limits is a step in the wrong direction? that it might in fact one day prevent plausible competition? how would abolishing term limits lead to less corruption?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Does it mean that directly elected governments are bad then? Of course not.. your own Congress is directly elected... does that mean it is bad?
    people vote within their states, and states send representatives to protect their interests in congress. in the same way, people vote for electors to protect their interests in the presidential election.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Sounds like she has a fear of the "dirty, stupid unwashed masses" that's been prevalent in capitalism since its birth in England and France. Perhaps she would be happier if we went back to the old system, where only people that owned land could vote?

    It's pretty funny that she mentions this, and then goes on to laud the American electoral system as if it's any different. Does she not read the news? Blajegovich? Nixon? Tonkin? Iraq? I mean, do I really have to list every single scandal that US politicians and the US government has been involved in?
    are you afraid to reply directly to me or are you just trying to intimidate me?

    I would love to debate with you but I'm not going to send all of my arguments through PeteEU, and I certainly don't think he's qualified at this point to answer for me.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    no, I am a proponent of democracy, which is why I value the limitation of power manifested in things like term limits. the will of the majority is important, as are the rights of all citizens, which come into question when the majority puts a dictator into office. I am merely suggesting that democracy in its most direct form can lead to a very unstable political atmosphere.
    Well no on uses direct forms per say of Democracy. All nations use a representative form of Democracy. Some elect directly their leader, others use a representative system to elect a legislative group that in turn choose the leader. But the common thread on all (except the US) is that everyone is elected by MAJORITY vote.

    we are a nation of states. the states cast their electoral votes for bush in 2000.
    Yea and against the majority vote of the people. And you dont find that odd? That someone who more people voted against gets the top job? As for the "state" comment.. just an excuse. IMO the US needs to figure out if it is a country or 50 mini states and take the consequence. As it stands now, the political parties can use the "split" to their political favour, may it be getting elected, or getting through legislation over the head of the majority of people. And no I am not against local democracy and as much as possible locally with in reason.

    imagine you are running for student body president. you easily win all of the female votes in the school, but you've failed to realize that each grade has slightly more males than females. you watch as the 7th grade vote goes to your opponent, followed by the 8th and the 9th, by small margins. ouch.

    you run again in high school. now your school is 55% female, but only because all of the men in the senior class have been drafted into the military. the senior class votes unanimously in your favor, giving you the popular vote, but the overwhelmingly male junior and sophomore class votes go to your opponent, an underclassman who has pledged to make cheerleaders cheer at JV games. the seniors send their class president and VP to student body meetings to ensure that the interests of the female senior class are still addressed even though they did not get the ASB president they wanted.

    /analogy.
    What you are talking about is protecting the minority from abuse by the majority. The question is where you should do that. You seem to believe that it is okay to slant the election system to favour the minority? You do know that is what they do in Iran right? What Saddam did.. and Hitler? If you want to protect the minorities in any country then have laws doing that, not slant your whole political system to favour one party.

    true. but we're talking about taking legal, democratic measures to amend the constitution of venezuela to allow chavez to be "president for life."
    No, he wants to be able to stand for the job more than the term limit. That is NOT president for life. Are term limits great? Sure they are and I support them in any society and am against what Chavez is trying to change, but he is not rewriting the constitution to name him and his children as the only legal President. The amount of US anti Chavez propoganda is so funny and clouding the facts.

    wouldn't you say that abolishing term limits is a step in the wrong direction? that it might in fact one day prevent plausible competition? how would abolishing term limits lead to less corruption?
    As I said, term limits are great and should be part of any political system (even my own that dont have it). Corruption does come when there is lack of accountability and transparency and term limits can help. However it can also be bad frankly depending on the situation.

    people vote within their states, and states send representatives to protect their interests in congress. in the same way, people vote for electors to protect their interests in the presidential election.
    And? Yes the people vote within the states, just as I vote with in my local county and large political entity and send my representative to our parliament. No difference. Now the electoral system is very different because it is not a direct vote and it does not represent the "voice of the people" as the one with least votes can win. Plus the electors are not elected in most cases by the people.

    I would love to debate with you but I'm not going to send all of my arguments through PeteEU, and I certainly don't think he's qualified at this point to answer for me.
    Not qualified? So how involved in democracy have you been? Ever been an election official? Part of a political party? part of a political campaign? Have you voted? I have.. in 2 countries with very different political systems. I am not saying that this makes me all knowing, but it does qualify me at least a bit to discuss political electoral systems around the world, which includes the American.

    He brings up a very valid point. Your favourite system brought us Bush, the guy who more people voted against than for, and look what his dictatorial leadership has brought us?! A war that should never have happened, an economy in the tanks, curbed individual freedoms, massive waste and corruption and so on.

    It is what I have been trying to tell you.... Does not matter what the system of democracy and how you do it, if there is no accountability, transparency and checks and balances then there will be corruption and waste. And this is especially true in instances where one party or group are favoured over the others in a political system, because they know that it will take extra ordinary effort to kick them out. Chicago case in point. Many congressional seats case in point.. takes a guy getting busted for paedophile to change political colour of a district.... but even getting busted for corruption or accused of it, can get you re-elected.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    No, because he's trying to tyranize by becomming emporer of his country.

    This is unacceptable. He needs to be stopped. Period.
    Firstly he isn't doing much that the British gov't has not done, we don't have term limits.

    Secondly it is not Britain's job to police the world and remove those that we don't like, this is dangerous to domestic liberty and external security.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yea and against the majority vote of the people. And you dont find that odd? That someone who more people voted against gets the top job? As for the "state" comment.. just an excuse. IMO the US needs to figure out if it is a country or 50 mini states and take the consequence. As it stands now, the political parties can use the "split" to their political favour, may it be getting elected, or getting through legislation over the head of the majority of people. And no I am not against local democracy and as much as possible locally with in reason.
    .
    The US is a federal system, it is meant to represent people within the states they live in not as an abstract mass. Now you may be a centralist who despises this but that is neither here not there to what the US is according to the constitution.

    Personally I'd say what it needs to do is actually have a stronger federalism and role back the usurpation of power the feds have taken in the last 200 years.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-14-08 at 07:59 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I'm sorry you cannot see it. The far left is infamous for their stunning lack of vision.

    Chavez is doing EXACTLY what Hitler did. Hitler sought and achieved ABSOLUTE power. Now, Chavez is doing EXACTLY the same.

    If history has taught us anything. it's that no man, no single person, should have absolute power. No human being is capable of withstanding the corrupting forces of this kind of power.

    Good god man! Open your eyes.

    Look at Zimbaebwe, Mugabe is a rutheless despot, he was ruined that country. His people are starving to death on a massive scale. He has people killed at will.

    This is a constant amoung dicators. Pol Pot, Hitler, Caesar, Kim Jong Ill, Idi Amin, Stalin, Kohmenie, ect ... ALL OF THEM ... ever last one is or was completely corrupted by absolute power.

    Chavez will suffer the same fate. He must be stopped NOW; BEFORE we becomes the world's next Hitler.

    Don't be blinded by bad judgement. See Chavez for the ****bag he is.
    Everyone sees he is a scumbag, or almost. The point however you are making that we, and I can only speak of course as a Briton myself here, should invade him for that.

    He is not the same as Hitler, Hitler was far more brutal and struck very quickly. You can't compare the fight over term limits with things like the enabling act. He is also unlikely to invade over countries, probably less likely than the US from where I'm sitting. Therefore it is certainly not our business to get involved in the affairs of his country and probably a bad thing for us and the world.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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