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Thread: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    They distinctly different circumstances. Hitler came to power in a completely different enivronment in a completely different way than Chavez. I suppose FDR was a dictator for going over the term limits? And - again - it doesn't matter what he wants to do and what he doesn't, if the people vote, as a democratic group, to abolish term limits then that is what the people want. Democracy is applicable to everything, not just things YOU think should be beyond democracy.
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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Nixon View Post
    They distinctly different circumstances. Hitler came to power in a completely different enivronment in a completely different way than Chavez. I suppose FDR was a dictator for going over the term limits? And - again - it doesn't matter what he wants to do and what he doesn't, if the people vote, as a democratic group, to abolish term limits then that is what the people want. Democracy is applicable to everything, not just things YOU think should be beyond democracy.

    The Germans thought the same way you do right before Hitler's national socialists ceased power from the Kaiser.

    Power corrupts ... absolute power corrupts absolutely. Chavez as a dictator would become a HUGE threat to the security of the free world.

    Chavez needs to be stopped by being deposed and exhiled to some 3rd world ****hole.

    Also... why are you making excuses for that despot cocksucker anyway?

  3. #43
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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The Germans thought the same way you do right before Hitler's national socialists ceased power from the Kaiser.
    The Kaiser was kicked out long before Hitler not only became a national figure but I even think was out of the army.

    Power corrupts ... absolute power corrupts absolutely. Chavez as a dictator would become a HUGE threat to the security of the free world.

    Chavez needs to be stopped by being deposed and exhiled to some 3rd world ****hole.

    Also... why are you making excuses for that despot cocksucker anyway?
    While I agree that absolute power corrupts (look at what happened with the Republicans in the US), why this "thing " Chavez? Do I want a fully democratic Venzuela? Sure, but it has never been like that. All they have done is kick out a corrupt right wing dictatorship backed by the US, and replaced it with a popular left wing government that is showing its true face more and more and heading back to the previous dictatorships.. only difference they hate the US.

    I mean yes he is a dictator somewhat. So what. So are so many other people around the world. North Korea has a million man army, and nukes... I would say that they are a far far far far bigger threat than Chavez. Same goes for Iran, Israel, Pakistan, and in your "back yard", Mexico and Canada are bigger threats than Chavez..
    PeteEU

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    south america has always been a perfect example of why we do NOT have a direct democracy and why that is a very good thing.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    south america has always been a perfect example of why we do NOT have a direct democracy and why that is a very good thing.
    What on earth are you talking about? No one has a freaking direct democracy. Almost everyone has a form of representative democracy, may it be the US, Europe and even dear Venezuela and Iran. In fact I could easily claim that Venezuela is more democratic than the US, simply because there are more than 2 big parties and their head of state is elected directly with majority vote.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? No one has a freaking direct democracy. Almost everyone has a form of representative democracy, may it be the US, Europe and even dear Venezuela and Iran. In fact I could easily claim that Venezuela is more democratic than the US, simply because there are more than 2 big parties and their head of state is elected directly with majority vote.
    yes, I'm saying electing directly with a majority vote is problematic, and yet many americans are ready to go with the popular vote for national offices. I find it interesting to see what kind of scummy people get elected in desperate countries like argentina simply because their pretty young wife endears herself to the masses, and then how people in america and other countries can wish for fewer road blocks between the uninformed, easily swayed voters and the presidency, want to get rid of term limits and other things of that nature that were designed to prevent the abuse of power. maybe I'm not making much sense, it's just an observation, feel free to ignore it.

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The Germans thought the same way you do right before Hitler's national socialists ceased power from the Kaiser.

    Power corrupts ... absolute power corrupts absolutely. Chavez as a dictator would become a HUGE threat to the security of the free world.

    Chavez needs to be stopped by being deposed and exhiled to some 3rd world ****hole.

    Also... why are you making excuses for that despot cocksucker anyway?
    Who's making excuses for him? I think he's an idiot, I'm just saying that if he held the referendum and the people voted for the abolishment of term limits then that is the will of the people and it must be followed. It doesn't make him a dictator, it makes him a democratically elected official who proposed a constitutional amendment, got it supported by the people and passed it. He can still lose his spot. And Chavez doesn't have 'absolute power' and he knows it, it's why he relies on anti-US soundbytes to get him noticed internationally.

    Why so angry?
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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    yes, I'm saying electing directly with a majority vote is problematic,
    So you are against the basic principle of democracy as we know it today? Democracy, regardless of what type, have the the principle of majority vote at its core. When a person gets elected with the least of the vote, that is the start of a dictatorship since a majority of the voters have voted AGAINST said person.

    Picture running for student body president. You get 60 out of 100 votes, and yet the teachers choose the good looking girl with big boobs, who's father happens to donate big money to the school. Is that fair? That is in principle how Bush got elected in 2000. Is that fair or democratic?

    and yet many americans are ready to go with the popular vote for national offices.
    Because it is the most fair way? Or do you want to go back to the good old days, where only people of certain stature (aka wealth) have a vote.. or white males over 35? Do you want only people of certain education and wealth to be able to vote?

    I find it interesting to see what kind of scummy people get elected in desperate countries like argentina simply because their pretty young wife endears herself to the masses, and then how people in america and other countries can wish for fewer road blocks between the uninformed, easily swayed voters and the presidency, want to get rid of term limits and other things of that nature that were designed to prevent the abuse of power. maybe I'm not making much sense, it's just an observation, feel free to ignore it.
    "Scummy" people and abuse of power happens everywhere, regardless if the person in question is elected directly or by a group of non elected people.

    Lets look at some examples. You mention Argentina. Argentina has never had a healthy democratic political system. It has been run by right wing dictatorships and left wing dictatorships for decades. Political corruption up to and including the office of the President has been wide spread and common. This is the life of politics in Argentina and it damn hard to change such an attitude and especially since the people in power also run the media and control most of the wealth in the country. Venezuela was the same for many decades btw, where the right had a lock on politics in Venezuela, and as soon as they eased up on the grip on society, Chavez got elected.

    Look at Chicago and other "corrupt" governments with in the US. It is not like they just happened, no.. the are common in said area because the political system is geared to such ideals over generations. Getting rid of corruption is damn hard, when there is no democracy. You cant get rid of corrupt politicians if the same politicians prevent any plausible competition in running, either by intimidation or by legalities.

    Does it mean that directly elected governments are bad then? Of course not.. your own Congress is directly elected... does that mean it is bad?

    The problem with corruption in government can be directly linked to weak political systems that have and are being manipulated by people in power to keep these people in power. This is a result in a weak democracy and especially a society that not only accepts corruption but embraces it as part of tradition. On top of that lack of accountability and transparency are often widespread in said societies. And if the media are in someone's pocket then it gets even harder to fight corruption, since media are the only thing that can change the views of people in the short and even medium term.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    So you are against the basic principle of democracy as we know it today? Democracy, regardless of what type, have the the principle of majority vote at its core. When a person gets elected with the least of the vote, that is the start of a dictatorship since a majority of the voters have voted AGAINST said person.

    Picture running for student body president. You get 60 out of 100 votes, and yet the teachers choose the good looking girl with big boobs, who's father happens to donate big money to the school. Is that fair? That is in principle how Bush got elected in 2000. Is that fair or democratic?
    Sounds like she has a fear of the "dirty, stupid unwashed masses" that's been prevalent in capitalism since its birth in England and France. Perhaps she would be happier if we went back to the old system, where only people that owned land could vote?

    "Scummy" people and abuse of power happens everywhere, regardless if the person in question is elected directly or by a group of non elected people.
    It's pretty funny that she mentions this, and then goes on to laud the American electoral system as if it's any different. Does she not read the news? Blajegovich? Nixon? Tonkin? Iraq? I mean, do I really have to list every single scandal that US politicians and the US government has been involved in?

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    Re: Chavez seeks indefinite re-election, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The Germans thought the same way you do right before Hitler's national socialists ceased power from the Kaiser.

    Power corrupts ... absolute power corrupts absolutely. Chavez as a dictator would become a HUGE threat to the security of the free world.

    Chavez needs to be stopped by being deposed and exhiled to some 3rd world ****hole.

    Also... why are you making excuses for that despot cocksucker anyway?
    Who do you expect Chavez will attack?

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