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At least 82 killed as gunmen rampage in India city

I know but i never use another religion as an arguement. I know there are questionable verses in the Bible but i would never dare to presume that the majority of Christians follow it

Every religion goes through its political times... it used to be Christianity, now Islam is the villain. It would be nice if the media balanced out the portrayals of extremism with footage of the good side of Islam. Back home I used to go to a community dinner that would take place on Saturdays... one of the mosques would give out free food to anyone who showed up. The people there were really nice, and my heart aches when I see people attacking and stereotyping Islam.

But you know, prior to 9-11 the average American didn't know a single thing about Islam, and after those events the media began to "educate" the public on its "evils". America's knowledge of Islam is still in its infancy and so ignorance is rampant. I respect your need to combat it, but you will largely be dealing with people who have already decided to not listen. Just know that there are also rational ones out there who know that the problem itself is not Islam.

:2wave:
 
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Indian Commandos Storm Jewish Center

Earlier in the day, an Army general, N. Thamburaj, was quoted as saying he expected all anti-terrorist operations in Mumbai to be wrapped up by midafternoon.

In a televised speech Thursday, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh blamed forces "based outside this country" in a thinly veiled accusation that Pakistan was involved. A day later, India's foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee was quoted by the Press Trust of India as saying that, according to preliminary reports, "some elements in Pakistan are responsible."

Hmm, an India-Pakistan conflict can't end well for anyone. Though I think few can deny Pakistan is a haven for extremists of all kinds.
 
Every religion goes through its political times... it used to be Christianity, now Islam is the villain. It would be nice if the media balanced out the portrayals of extremism with footage of the good side of Islam. Back home I used to go to a community dinner that would take place on Saturdays... one of the mosques would give out free food to anyone who showed up. The people there were really nice, and my heart aches when I see people attacking and stereotyping Islam.

I respect your need to combat it, but you will largely be dealing with people who have already decided to not listen. Just know that there are also rational ones out there who know that the problem itself is not Islam.

:2wave:

Thank you Orius :)
My Mosque still does that and especially on Eid. We just how attempt to improve relations with other religions in my community. Its sad watching people generalize over the actions of a few; after all. I wouldn't use a few cases to demonize entire religions and their followers.

Prior to 9/11, I had little inkling of UK/US involvement in ME and was not as politically aware and suddenley after 9/11. Being a Muslim was now an 'issue' or problem when before not alot of people knew about Islam as you said and if they knew about it, they wouldn't have a problem with it. Saying you are Muslim is now dirty in some cases.
 
You linking absolutely everything to Islam is ****ing annoying.

This has everything to do with the expansion of dar al-Islam through the offensive global jihad.
 
That's not what she's saying. She is commenting on the habits of certain posters, here, to vilify Islam, no matter what. Islamic EXTREMISTSdid these acts in India. This is a reflection on Islamic EXTREMISTS not on Islam, and attempts to show otherwise are just overgeneralizations and stereotypes. But these posters have already had this pointed out to them many times. They don't care, and keep doing it, no matter how wrong the continue to be.


Something tells me that the rest of the Ummah won't even summon up the outrage to engage in mass protests across the globe which they managed to summon over cartoons, rather expect to see celebrations across dar al-Islam for a successful strike against dar al-Harab as we saw after 9-11.
 
Perhaps im reading the wrong links or newspapers but judging by BBC, Guardian, Independent and the Times. Where in that link he posted does it say Islam had a role to play in this shooting? This is politics;

For the Islamist religion and politics are one in the same, that's the very thing that makes them Islamists, IE political Islam which is a plague across the entire globe much like the totalitarian ideologies of Communism and Fascism before it.

anyone with a slight understanding of that region will know conflict between India and other groups has always been around - this one in particular seemed to be intent on destablizing the country.

Yes they have ever since dar al-Islam invaded and perpetrated the largest genocide in history on the indian subcontinent.

Seeing this attack seemed to be directed at British and Americans, where does it state Islam had influenced this?
Al Qaeda is apparentley behind this and we all know Islam has barely anything to do with why they hate US or why they would want to attack it.

We all know that huh? I suppose that's why OBL said that he "was ordered to fight all the people until they say there is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet."

How about deal with the impossible. Islam is not the deciding factor in this attack but as usual certain posters seem more intent on attacking Islam as a whole rather than the extremists who are behind this.

Political Islam IE Islamism is the ONLY factor in this attack without that bankrupt exteremist ideology brainwashing millions of people around the word this attack would not have occurred.
 
Im a Muslim yes and i don't see where anyone would get the impression Muslims as a whole would agree with any form of attack on civilians.
I think its disgusting what has occured and i hope UK Government aids India in catching these criminals and bringing them to justice.


Will we be seeing the Ummah summon even half of the anger that they did over cartoons? Doubtful, I am more inclined to believe we'll be seeing celebrations as we did after 911.
 
Will you accept testimony from persons raised Islamic who then learned better ? That is who the man was mentioning.

Wafa Sultan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nonie Darwish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wafa Sultan said:
"I have decided to fight Islam; please pay attention to my statement; to fight Islam, not the political Islam, not the militant Islam, not the radical Islam, not the Wahhabi Islam, but Islam itself...Islam has never been misunderstood, Islam is the problem....(Muslims) have to realize that they have only two choices: to change or to be crushed."

Clearly her renouncing of Islam has made her peaceful and accepting of others....

Nonie Darwish-

So...she was raised in egypt until 8, then put in Catholic school in America. Clearly a good example of an ex-Muslim. Not.

The fact is most "ex-Muslims" who blame Islam are in fact westerners who were in an Islamic country when they were younger or grew up Muslim in a western country. They jumped on the media terror wagon after 9/11 with books and speeches.
 
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Again, I hate to interrupt personal diatribes and childish spats about "Islam is bad...Islam is good" for news about, you know, the actual topic, but in case anyone is interested and hasn't thrown up their hands and moved on, the death toll is now up to 160. The hostages at the Jewish center have all been killed, including two children. At least one terrorist is still holed up in the Taj hotel; 30 people are dead at the Oberjoi hotel but the remaining live hostages have been rescued. Several Indian police officers have been killed, including the chief of their anti-terrorist unit. It's been a horrible tragedy for the people of Mumbai.

India is now outright stating that the terrorists came from Pakistan; Pakistan is flat denying it (how they can deny it, I don't know, since the guys spoke Pakistani... but apparently the Pakistani government is sticking with the "if we don't admit it, it doesn't exist" school of thought.)

The ramifications of this tragedy could be huge. I feel terrible for the people of India. This really is their "9-11". :(
 
Im ready for certain hadiths to be removed entirely or for verses that imply christians and jews are legitimate targets to be re interpretated and/or denounced but not every Muslim is

And such a move would be treating the symptoms as temporary relief from treating the core problem. That is, "reinterpreting" could just as easily be used for the opposite goals.

Moreover, who has the authority to re-interpret? I don't recall pluralism being a valid excuse to "reinterpret". How would reinterpretation of the divine be justified ?
 
What you say is true. But what is there to debate. This terrorist attack is horrible. How many ways can you say it?
We must be spending time and effort to stop this and until then, prevent this - which, sadly, may not be possible in India , its hard enough to do in our nation.

Maybe all of the Islamic nations should be taken over by the UN and all of their school systems be removed from Islam and the children taught to be tolerant and to think for themselves..
This is an example... when I say the "moderate or peaceful" Muslims have not done nearly enough to stop terrorism..
The "terrorists data base" must be national and international...now it is neither. Even our own states do not cooperate...
This pig-headedness plays into the hands of the terrorist criminals..
 
And such a move would be treating the symptoms as temporary relief from treating the core problem. That is, "reinterpreting" could just as easily be used for the opposite goals.

Moreover, who has the authority to re-interpret? I don't recall pluralism being a valid excuse to "reinterpret". How would reinterpretation of the divine be justified ?

A reinterpretation is not necessary, a vast majority live peacefully and non-violent lives. What needs to be addressed are the conditions which bread the need for reinterpretation. The monopolies of minority leadership which are being propped up by western economic interest are the underlying cause.
 
A reinterpretation is not necessary, a vast majority live peacefully and non-violent lives. What needs to be addressed are the conditions which bread the need for reinterpretation.

The Islamists don't reinterpret anything, the Islamists are only interpreting Islam the way it has been interpreted for the last 15 hundred years ever since Mohammed, IE it is the duty of Muslims to expand dar al-Islam through offensive Jihad and to kill, convert, or subjugate as Dhimmi half slaves every non-Muslim on the planet. THAT'S ISLAM, the history of the Islamic world since Mohammed proves it as does its present, while there maybe moderate Muslims there is no moderate Islam and there never was, genuine Muslim reformers have to completely ignore cerain parts of the Koran and Hadiths all together. And I love how today the category of "moderate" is allowed for Muslims who may support sharia and what not, but they just don't blow **** up to obtain it, that's hardly makes them a moderate in my book.

The monopolies of minority leadership which are being propped up by western economic interest are the underlying cause.

Oh please, when they allow for free and fair elections in that region the Islamists get elected.
 
We must be spending time and effort to stop this and until then, prevent this - which, sadly, may not be possible in India , its hard enough to do in our nation.

Maybe all of the Islamic nations should be taken over by the UN and all of their school systems be removed from Islam and the children taught to be tolerant and to think for themselves..

Oh hell no! One of my biggest fears over this attack is that it'll be used to justify further military attacks on the region, and since I'm typing this while the news talks about a teenaged Marine UK dying in Helmand Province, you can probably understand why I'm arguing this point with you.

So, how exactly do you see removing "Islam" from any school system as being a way to fight terror, given that these conflicts are most often caused by political, ethnic and territorial factors cloaked in a misunderstanding of what Islam is about? I'm not in favour of denominational schooling, but your suggestion would both infuriate people and not do any good at all. As Laila says, it's the perversion of the text that's the problem. Fight that, and while they'll probably just switch to using something else to justify their attacks, at least they can't hide behind Islam anymore.

And I take issue with your assumption teaching children Islam is counter-productive to encouraging tolerance. Should we shut down parochial schools in the West while we're at it?

earthworm said:
This is an example... when I say the "moderate or peaceful" Muslims have not done nearly enough to stop terrorism..

Okay then, what is it you expect Muslims to do, and what haven't they done, about this? What is a UK Muslim like Laila supposed to do about perversion of Islam in nation thousands of miles away from her home, aside from debunking harmful rhetoric, as she's already doing?

It really frustrates me sometimes, the inability/refusal so many have (not necessarily yourself in particular) about seeing the bigger picture. Islam is not causing these incidents. Political tension, feelings of victimisation and anger at the West, quarrels over representation, power and land are causing these conflicts. Perverting Islam however, in a religious nation, is an effective way of bringing people over to your side. You may not be willing to die for land, for more cash, but for your God? A lot more people are going to sign up for the last option.

Target those who encourage violence in Islam's name. Encourage foreign aid programs for social welfare, health and literacy, which in addition to being a great thing to do morally, will also stop so much of the Middle East hating the West.

Cast a careful eye over your foreign policy over the last few decades and try and figure out how things got this bad.

Aim for foreign policy that helps the rest of the world, and for the love of God, stop invading countries unless doing so is a mortal necessity, because their fellow citizens dying infront of them is going to leave a lot of people furious, saddened and ripe for recruitment to fight those they blame for those deaths.

Learn real quantifiable lessons to help your nation fight terror.

/rant

But nah, "ISLAMMZ IS FUH TERRORISTZZ!" is just so much easier. :roll:

earthworm said:
The "terrorists data base" must be national and international...now it is neither. Even our own states do not cooperate...
This pig-headedness plays into the hands of the terrorist criminals..

Are there problems with information shring between nations at the moment? Because at least regarding the situation in Mumbai, it appears the British police already have a system set up to conduct their investigations and funnel the information uncovered to the Indian government.
 
The Islamists don't reinterpret anything, the Islamists are only interpreting Islam the way it has been interpreted for the last 15 hundred years ever since Mohammed, IE it is the duty of Muslims to expand dar al-Islam through offensive Jihad and to kill, convert, or subjugate as Dhimmi half slaves every non-Muslim on the planet. THAT'S ISLAM, the history of the Islamic world since Mohammed proves it as does its present, while there maybe moderate Muslims there is no moderate Islam and there never was, genuine Muslim reformers have to completely ignore cerain parts of the Koran and Hadiths all together. And I love how today the category of "moderate" is allowed for Muslims who may support sharia and what not, but they just don't blow **** up to obtain it, that's hardly makes them a moderate in my book.

Oh please, when they allow for free and fair elections in that region the Islamists get elected.

I love how they become "free and fair elections" when you're bashing Islam but they're brutal dictators when we invade or want to sanction them.
 
Again, I hate to interrupt personal diatribes and childish spats about "Islam is bad...Islam is good" for news about, you know, the actual topic, but in case anyone is interested and hasn't thrown up their hands and moved on, the death toll is now up to 160. The hostages at the Jewish center have all been killed, including two children. At least one terrorist is still holed up in the Taj hotel; 30 people are dead at the Oberjoi hotel but the remaining live hostages have been rescued. Several Indian police officers have been killed, including the chief of their anti-terrorist unit. It's been a horrible tragedy for the people of Mumbai.

India is now outright stating that the terrorists came from Pakistan; Pakistan is flat denying it (how they can deny it, I don't know, since the guys spoke Pakistani... but apparently the Pakistani government is sticking with the "if we don't admit it, it doesn't exist" school of thought.)

The ramifications of this tragedy could be huge. I feel terrible for the people of India. This really is their "9-11". :(
hmmmmmm
~160 currently vs ~3000 dead, and ~5000 planes ordered out of the skies of North America no matter where they were
hmmmmmm
maybe 9-11 jr
as tragic a situation as it is, it hardly compares


and so what if they spoke Pakistani
from what I heard some spoke English when asking for the passports
.should Britain & America nuke themselves over this?
 
I love how they become "free and fair elections" when you're bashing Islam but they're brutal dictators when we invade or want to sanction them.

There were free and fair elections in Palestine and Lebanon. In fact whenever free elections occur it seems that the Islamists win, the only exceptions would be in countries which were forced to ban Islamist parties like Turkey and Indonesia.
 
A reinterpretation is not necessary, a vast majority live peacefully and non-violent lives. What needs to be addressed are the conditions which bread the need for reinterpretation. The monopolies of minority leadership which are being propped up by western economic interest are the underlying cause.
And I'm not even slightly inclined to believe that this pipedream of yours would occur without Western influences.
 
Oh hell no! One of my biggest fears over this attack is that it'll be used to justify further military attacks on the region, and since I'm typing this while the news talks about a teen-aged Marine UK dying in Helmand Province, you can probably understand why I'm arguing this point with you.
Apparently, the Islamics wish to have their way in the world, which of course is not good for the Atheist, the Christian, the Jew....ect.

So, how exactly do you see removing "Islam" from any school system as being a way to fight terror, given that these conflicts are most often caused by political, ethnic and territorial factors cloaked in a misunderstanding of what Islam is about?I am to understand that the Islamic schools teach hatred and fear and intolerance..This, of course is not good.. I'm not in favour of denominational schooling, but your suggestion would both infuriate people and not do any good at all.Tough !, I'm still angry over "9-11-01" and all the other attacks.
Cleaning up the schools will do a world of good, but they must rid themselves of the Mullahs with their hateful Koran..
As Laila says, it's the perversion of the text that's the problem.Ok, then they should clean up the Koran, revise it; its a stupid thing anyway, trying to live one's life based on a book written so long ago.. Fight that, and while they'll probably just switch to using something else to justify their attacks, at least they can't hide behind Islam anymore.

And I take issue with your assumption teaching children Islam is counter-productive to encouraging tolerance. Should we shut down parochial schools in the West while we're at it? We do not teach hatred, intolerance in our schools. Do not compare Islam to Christianity.



Okay then, what is it you expect Muslims to do, and what haven't they done, about this? What is a UK Muslim like Laila supposed to do about perversion of Islam in nation thousands of miles away from her home, aside from debunking harmful rhetoric, as she's already doing?

It really frustrates me sometimes, the inability/refusal so many have (not necessarily yourself in particular) about seeing the bigger picture. Islam is not causing these incidents. Political tension, feelings of victimization and anger at the West, quarrels over representation, power and land are causing these conflicts. Perverting Islam however, in a religious nation, is an effective way of bringing people over to your side. You may not be willing to die for land, for more cash, but for your God? A lot more people are going to sign up for the last option.

Target those who encourage violence in Islam's name. Encourage foreign aid programs for social welfare, health and literacy, which in addition to being a great thing to do morally, will also stop so much of the Middle East hating the West.

Cast a careful eye over your foreign policy over the last few decades and try and figure out how things got this bad.

Aim for foreign policy that helps the rest of the world, and for the love of God, stop invading countries unless doing so is a mortal necessity, because their fellow citizens dying in front of them is going to leave a lot of people furious, saddened and ripe for recruitment to fight those they blame for those deaths.

Learn real quantifiable lessons to help your nation fight terror.

/rant

But nah, "ISLAMMZ IS FUH TERRORISTZZ!" is just so much easier. :roll:And what is meant by this nasty little remark ?



Are there problems with information sharing between nations at the moment? Because at least regarding the situation in Mumbai, it appears the British police already have a system set up to conduct their investigations and funnel the information uncovered to the Indian government.

Of course there are problems with "information sharing". This is slowly improving, but with all the world's languages, privacy concerns, intellect and honesty of people handling personal data..

After 9-11-01, what would you have done ?

But, I agree( the Iraq war), we should have concentrated a lot more no catching bin Laden, no matter which country he was in....
 
Doubtful, I am more inclined to believe we'll be seeing celebrations as we did after 911.

I highly doubt it.
And what world celebrations after 9/11? :roll:
 
Yes they have ever since dar al-Islam invaded and perpetrated the largest genocide in history on the indian subcontinent.

No one is certain who is behind these attacks. Keep that in mind.

We all know that huh? I suppose that's why OBL said that he "was ordered to fight all the people until they say there is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet."

So .... American troops who in history entered Saudi Arabia, or the previous war in Iraq or this war on Iraq/Afghanistan, the continuation of funding Israelis to kill and starve Palestinians, congratulating and funding dirty dictators and then condeming others in the same breath, Iran/Iraq war, friends with Saudi Royals and ensuring they stay within power ....

You are right, Islam is the sole reason for anyone to want to hate US :roll: :doh

Political Islam IE Islamism is the ONLY factor in this attack without that bankrupt exteremist ideology brainwashing millions of people around the word this attack would not have occurred.

Bull****.
This attack has a basis of Politics and seeing the attackers are not confirmed, i wouldn't assume anything.

3 Possible groups.
Indian grown militants.
Pakistani militants
Al Qaeda
:roll:


Will you accept testimony from persons raised Islamic who then learned better ? That is who the man was mentioning.

Wafa Sultan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nonie Darwish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No. Their opinion is worthless to me.
They are clearly in it for the money and idiotic westerners swallow it. Write a book crying about traumatic times will not get you anywhere, add Muslim or Former Muslim and its bound to fly off the shelves :roll:
 
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Of course there are problems with "information sharing". This is slowly improving, but with all the world's languages, privacy concerns, intellect and honesty of people handling personal data..

After 9-11-01, what would you have done ?

But, I agree( the Iraq war), we should have concentrated a lot more no catching bin Laden, no matter which country he was in....

YOU are still angry about 9/11? Please.

Your country got its justice when it attacked two Muslim countries killing way more than died in 9/11.


Moreover, who has the authority to re-interpret? I don't recall pluralism being a valid excuse to "reinterpret". How would reinterpretation of the divine be justified ?

That is the exact problem within Islam.
We have no one with the authority system within Islam. Who would approve of the re interpretations?

Technically, Imam's could be the next one down from Prophets in the hierarchy but i doubt it.
 
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Update:

Bloody end to the siege of Bombay

Commandos were last night fighting the last gunmen holed up in the Taj Mahal Palace hotel in Bombay as one of the worst terrorist attacks in India’s history reached its bloody endgame.

The diplomatic fallout was just beginning, however, as India laid the blame for the attacks on Pakistan and an official said that two of the militants were British Pakistanis. British officials said that they were investigating the possibility of such a link but had found no evidence.

India also faced criticism when five Israeli hostages were found dead inside a Jewish centre after a raid by commandos. An Israeli offer of assistance had been turned down.

At least 144 people dead
19 being foreigners
 
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