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At least 82 killed as gunmen rampage in India city

Shewter said:
Don't be so quick to avoid that one... :lol:

Don't just read the bible, look throughout history. People have claimed "God" for their reasoning in a LOT of heinous crimes.
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I know but you have to understand that even if God wasn't used as an excuse, another thing would be used as justification.
That is just how humans are.
 
Shewter said:
Thank you, this kind of information is what I was digging for.
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Well why didn't you say so? lol

I have a very moderate outlook on Islam but alot of Muslims are still not where i am. Im ready for certain hadiths to be removed entirely or for verses that imply christians and jews are legitimate targets to be re interpretated and/or denounced but not every Muslim is :p
 
Shewter said:
Most is a large number to live up to don't ya think? :2razz:
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Nah, I've been here 3+ years. I know how this forum swings. :yes:

But it goes beyond the extremist actions in just THIS thread. I understand laila's frustration at the OP for posting every Islamic related story he can dig up... but it needs to be squashed effectively so as to not convert more people to the "douchebaggery" that is blind ignorance.

In another thread he posted a couple quotes from the Qu'ran that could possibly be misleading. Things like THAT amplify the story being presented here. And people who are/were on the fence tend to be swayed by that kind of stuff. Not by one person saying "You're wrong" but possibly by one person saying "This is why they do not qualify as Muslim" etc.
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Again, you're not saying anything that I disagree with, I do not say, "you are wrong" and leave it at that. I will always give a reason, either with evidence or showing illogic/misrepresentation. I did the latter, here.

I remember about 2 years ago, a poster came here and started quoting the Talmud, showing how Judaism was hateful towards non-Jews. I showed, with evidence how each of his quotes was erroneous, either through substance, or through an exposure of their misrepresentation. Both were effective methods, and the poster was shown to have little credibility on the topic.

Substance and reasoning both can effectively debunk a position.
 
Shewter said:
Don't be so quick to avoid that one... :lol:

Don't just read the bible, look throughout history. People have claimed "God" for their reasoning in a LOT of heinous crimes.
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I disagree and this goes back to logical reasoning. Look at what you wrote. People have CLAIMED GOD for their reasoning. This shows that it is all about interpretation, not about the religion itself.

See? I logically debunked your position. Didn't need further substantiation. :2razz:
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I disagree and this goes back to logical reasoning. Look at what you wrote. People have CLAIMED GOD for their reasoning. This shows that it is all about interpretation, not about the religion itself.

See? I logically debunked your position. Didn't need further substantiation. :2razz:
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I'm not saying blame christianity. I'm saying propose a comparison between the two in order to show these "knuckleheads" (decided to go with a lighter term for morons) that just about everyone does it at some point or another (generalization) in order to fulfill their own wishes.

:2wave:

such as the crusades..... :shock:
 
Shewter said:
I'm not saying blame christianity. I'm saying propose a comparison between the two in order to show these "knuckleheads" (decided to go with a lighter term for morons) that just about everyone does it at some point or another (generalization) in order to fulfill their own wishes.

:2wave:

such as the crusades..... :shock:
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Doesn't work. You get the comparison-thread-derail argument. Showing the illogic of their position in an isolative way, is most effective. But tell you what, here's your task. Try this method and get back to me with how it goes. I will gladly admit you are correct if it works.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Doesn't work. You get the comparison-thread-derail argument. Showing the illogic of their position in an isolative way, is most effective. But tell you what, here's your task. Try this method and get back to me with how it goes. I will gladly admit you are correct if it works.
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Aye! Aye! Cap'. If I find a post that warrants that kind of attention from me personally I will do so and PM you the link.

Untill then, I will push these discussions along so I've got something to do during the grave shift.

To be honest, I could care less who wins this debate as long as it is actively moving while I am on here... seeing as I live in the Seattle area there are rarely any any political friendly persons outside of your Perry Logan's and your Truth Detector's. I don't get much constructive live debate.

:2wave:
 
Shewter said:
Aye! Aye! Cap'. If I find a post that warrants that kind of attention from me personally I will do so and PM you the link.
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Do so. I'll watch how things go.

Untill then, I will push these discussions along so I've got something to do during the grave shift.

To be honest, I could care less who wins this debate as long as it is actively moving while I am on here... seeing as I live in the Seattle area there are rarely any any political friendly persons outside of your Perry Logan's and your Truth Detector's. I don't get much constructive live debate.

:2wave:
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I'm on the East Coast, but with my hours and my insomnia, I'm on the graveyard shift, too. Every once in a while, you get live debate, but not usually.
 
From a Reuters report, it appears increasingly likely that the terrorist organization responsible for the attacks is tied to Kashmir. Reuters reported today:

A militant holed up at the center phoned an Indian television channel to offer talks with the government for the release of hostages, but also to complain about abuses in Kashmir, over which India and Pakistan have fought two of their three wars.

"Ask the government to talk to us and we will release the hostages," the man, identified by the India TV channel as Imran, said, speaking in Urdu in what sounded like a Kashmiri accent.

"Are you aware how many people have been killed in Kashmir? Are you aware how your army has killed Muslims. Are you aware how many of them have been killed in Kashmir this week?"
 
Aside from the possibilities that "Deccan Mujahideen" could be a new terrorist entity or that it could be a spin-off or front entity for an existing terrorist group, is that it could be a subsidiary/umbrella organization for one or more terrorist groups.

One such model would be the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), which is an umbrella group of such terrorist organizations as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. A subsidiary or umbrella entity would allow terrorist organizations to use new methods of attack and, at least in the short-term, make it more difficult for law enforcement, national security, and intelligence authorities to implicate existing terrorist organizations. Such an arrangement allows terrorist entities to pool manpower and resources.

Ultimately, India's questioning of the captured terrorists and forensic evidence will prove crucial in identifying the terrorist organization or organizations responsible. For now, as noted in an earlier Reuters news story, it appears that a Kashmiri link exists.
 
Laila said:
You linking absolutely everything to Islam is ****ing annoying.

Have you thought this occured due to political shifts within India and that region? No? Or did you read India and assume it happened because Islam ordered it on people not dream that a few sick individuals done this.

You know what, how about i start posting every killing that occurs in the western world and blame it on Christianity and Judaism
Hey, you know what. A father raped his two daughters and got them pregnant 19 times over a number of years. What religion do you think i should lay the blame at? :doh
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The atrocities performed in the name of Islam are symptoms of the greater problem: religious conviction. That is, believing in the TESTIMONY of a book or a teacher as something more than it really is. As long as people place faith in testimony above the means in which they can prove it they can be convinced to do anything. You can't fight fire with fire, you have to fix the way people think. I see no hope for this with the current status quo. The conflicts spurred by such will continue.
 
SgtRock said:
2008_11_26t150231_450x300_us_india_mumbai_deathtoll.jpg
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That is one gruesome picture right there.

PerryLogan said:
I blame the Republicans for this--largely because:

1) you know damn well they'd be blaming Obama if they could,
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Funny I havent heard anything like that yet.

2) world terrorism has tripled under their watch.
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The hands of the Democrats are just as dirty if not more.

Shewter said:
Just stop with the "OMG Rep's this!" "Blame the cons for that!" attitude, and start contributing to humanity as a whole. Good god dude!
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He is the Aquapup of the left on this forum, you actually expect intelligent and insightful comments from him?
 
Lets see . . .

big terror attack, , ,

and who did it ? ? ?

sumthin-or-other MUJAHIDEEN,

Better get 5 pages of apologists rationalizing how Islam is not to blame, STAT!!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
Voidwar said:
Lets see . . .

big terror attack, , ,

and who did it ? ? ?

sumthin-or-other MUJAHIDEEN,

Better get 5 pages of apologists rationalizing how Islam is not to blame, STAT!!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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I blame Mohammed Ali and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
 
At least 125 dead, nearly 350 wounded, the city still under siege, hostages still being held, one of the deadliest, most well-coordinated terrorist attacks in years... and we have three pages of posters mostly arguing amongst themselves and insulting each other.

I'd hoped that a few weeks after the election the posters in this forum would return focus to discussing topics and issues rather than each other. Apparently not. Bummer.
 
DiAnna said:
At least 125 dead, nearly 350 wounded, the city still under siege, hostages still being held, one of the deadliest, most well-coordinated terrorist attacks in years... and we have three pages of posters mostly arguing amongst themselves and insulting each other.

I'd hoped that a few weeks after the election the posters in this forum would return focus to discussing topics and issues rather than each other. Apparently not. Bummer.
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What you say is true. But what is there to debate. This terrorist attack is horrible. How many ways can you say it?
 
What are they doing with the hostages? Have there been any demands or anything?
 
The news sites are at least 12 hours old, so I don't know the updates. About 10 sites were hit all at once, including a train station, a restaurant, a Jewish center and the hotels. At the hotels, some of the gunmen were searching for people with American and British passports, then taking those people hostage. There's no accurate information about how many hostages are still being held, where they are being held, or who they are. Last information said the police were storming one of the hotels.

Some intercepted telephone transmissions from the gunmen was evidence that they were speaking in a Pakistani dialect, which instantly scared the holy hell out of the Pakistani government. If they trace these guys back to the Pakistani military or any official channel, they might just be looking at a nuke up their rear, so diplomats are out in force, hand-wringing has commenced.

This could get a lot worse before it gets better.

Me, I'm concerned about the coordination and planning of the attacks. The commandos were all very young, late teens/early 20's... so I think we can be fairly certain they were the cannon fodder. It's the planners I worry about... who were they and what are they planning next.
 
DiAnna said:
Some intercepted telephone transmissions from the gunmen was evidence that they were speaking in a Pakistani dialect, which instantly scared the holy hell out of the Pakistani government. If they trace these guys back to the Pakistani military or any official channel, they might just be looking at a nuke up their rear, so diplomats are out in force, hand-wringing has commenced.
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Even if it lacks official involvement, a connection to Pakistan would be major. If an attack this size was based in Pakistan all of the kinda-sorta-maybe's about using force in Pakistan will disappear quick
 
Laila said:
I agree and i do hope more Muslims are vocal about their disgust with these sorts of actions but it is a minority who perform these actions and it is almost always linked with politics in some form but just use religion as a cover up for it.
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That's the problem with Islam...it's religion AND politics mixed into one, according to people who got fed up and left Islam.
 
Laila said:
Im ready for certain hadiths to be removed entirely or for verses that imply christians and jews are legitimate targets to be re interpretated and/or denounced but not every Muslim is :p
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I'm glad to see you acknowledge the fact that non-Muslims/kaffirs/infidels are actually targets.
 
Invayne said:
I'm glad to see you acknowledge the fact that non-Muslims/kaffirs/infidels are actually targets.
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Im ready for certain hadiths to be removed entirely or for verses that imply christians and jews are legitimate targets to be re interpretated and/or denounced but not every Muslim is
 
Invayne said:
That's the problem with Islam...it's religion AND politics mixed into one, according to people who got fed up and left Islam.
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Yes .... because ex Muslims opinions hold so much weight inside Islam :roll:
 
Laila said:
Yes .... because ex Muslims opinions hold so much weight inside Islam :roll:
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Must have been something about it they didn't agree with, but I guess people like Nonie Darwish and Wafa Sultan don't know what they're talking about...:roll:
 
Invayne said:
Must have been something about it they didn't agree with, but I guess people like Nonie Darwish and Wafa Sultan don't know what they're talking about...:roll:
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*cough*
Who?

Must not be very important if i don't know them
I prefer Islamic speakers speaking about Islam tyvm.
 
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