• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Freedom House calls for investigation

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,116
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
article here

Freedom House Press Release

A few weeks ago, Taiwanese police used brutal tactics to prevent visiting Chinese envoy CHen Yunlin from witnessing anti-China protests. They took flags away from people, they forcibly (and violently) closed a record shop, they took down a sign hanging from a hotel room in the hotel where the envoy was staying, they took away cameras and videocameras from people in the protest area, they used water cannons to disperse peaceful protesters, they forcibly removed peaceful student protesters who were protesting the heavy-handed police tactics.

The tactics of the Ma administration has severly weakened the civil rights of Taiwan's people and are reminiscent of tactics used when Chiang Ching-kuo was in power in Taiwan.

There NEEDS to be an independent investigtion of police tactics and those responsible need to be brought to justice.
 
I am worried for Taiwan right now. If this is how its government can easily be bent over the visitor of one Chinese diplomatic, then there is not a lot of hope for its future sovereignty and democracy. The same thing happens in the West though with big protests that challenge the government. If one person misbehaves, the police attack everyone, hence the advent of agents provocateurs.
 
I am worried for Taiwan right now. If this is how its government can easily be bent over the visitor of one Chinese diplomatic, then there is not a lot of hope for its future sovereignty and democracy. The same thing happens in the West though with big protests that challenge the government. If one person misbehaves, the police attack everyone, hence the advent of agents provocateurs.

I am am also concerned. It is as if Ma has no idea that the public is increasingly discontent of the people in Taiwan and if he ignores the increasing calls for an independent investigation of the violence and other violations of basic civil rights perpetrated by the police in Taipei, more and more people will turn against him. As it is right now, he stands little chance of re-election in the next elections - as more and more people who voted for him say they will never vote for him again.

Now, we have a discriminatory economic stimulus plan passed, but while it is getting better, there are still discriminatory elements to it.
 
Now, we have a discriminatory economic stimulus plan passed, but while it is getting better, there are still discriminatory elements to it.

Like what?
 
Like what?

It will still be difficult to use with traditional vendors and markets - though they say they are still working on it, and foreign resident taxpayers are still excluded. Some of the other bad provisions from earlier in the week have been mostly worked out though. It is a much fairer package today than it was on MOnday.
 
I care little for whether Taiwan retains it's Democracy (such as it is).
What really concerns me is whether the US will continue on it's hedonistic charge down the road to Socialism/Communism?
 
I care little for whether Taiwan retains it's Democracy (such as it is).
What really concerns me is whether the US will continue on it's hedonistic charge down the road to Socialism/Communism?

I care about both.

The U.S. will figure out that this is the wrong road - before it is too late. They did last time, they will again.

As for democracy in other countries, it is in the U.S. interest to have more democracies in the world. Even if the people in those countries don't like the US (something that is NOT the case in Taiwan - Taiwanese by in large LOVE the United States), it is better than to have the world run by tyrants who will actively work to subvert the interests of the United States.
 
I care about both.

The U.S. will figure out that this is the wrong road - before it is too late. They did last time, they will again.

As for democracy in other countries, it is in the U.S. interest to have more democracies in the world. Even if the people in those countries don't like the US (something that is NOT the case in Taiwan - Taiwanese by in large LOVE the United States), it is better than to have the world run by tyrants who will actively work to subvert the interests of the United States.

Except that the U.S. is not a democratic nation, it is a polyarchy, and this is how it wishes to fashion the other nations it invades. People are given the incidental freedom to vote every few years, but the candidates are selected by the elites in the country, and those elected have almost complete power.

It is not about removing tyranny. Some tyrants are left in power for the simple fact that they cooperate with American elites. It's about economic power first and foremost, and this is what the American people have zero influence on. In American elections, the real issues are never talked about: globalization, free trade, economic liberalism, foreign policy, etc. But that is all the elites care about.

I am not convinced that the U.S. would do very much at this point if China wanted to take hold again in Taiwan. It might intervene in order to save "democratic" face since it signed an agreement back in history (after all, it must at least try to preserve the myth that it is a democratic nation serving democratic interests), but it would never go to war with China because the elites would not allow it to happen.
 
Last edited:
THis whole thread is completely dishonest.
Brutal tactics? What the OP clearly will not post is what resulted in the police force cracking down on the protestors.
Which was already shown here here and here in these various videos that you can view for yourself of the allegedly violent crack down.
But will any of this matter? No, because the OP has been able to dishonestly manipulate the democracy of Taiwan with being synonomous with the negative connotations of communist China - all without providing the slightest shred of evidence other than empty allegations.
The pan greens of Taiwan want to pretend that Taiwan is going backwards in democracy.
Have constitutional rights been suspended? No; have individual rights been wrongfully violated? again no. There is not a single shred of truth to these allegations, nothing but pan greens who now have no power whatsoever and are looking for every opportunity to deligitimize the now ruling party.
In typical fashion all we need to see are the mention of the word China, and the word attack and the poster wouldn't need to validate their arguments anymore due to the negative sentimental associations.
 
I care little for whether Taiwan retains it's Democracy (such as it is).
What really concerns me is whether the US will continue on it's hedonistic charge down the road to Socialism/Communism?
Which company/companies are being nationalised?
 
It will still be difficult to use with traditional vendors and markets - though they say they are still working on it, and foreign resident taxpayers are still excluded. Some of the other bad provisions from earlier in the week have been mostly worked out though. It is a much fairer package today than it was on MOnday.
Discriminitory? un huh.
 
I care about both.

The U.S. will figure out that this is the wrong road - before it is too late. They did last time, they will again.

As for democracy in other countries, it is in the U.S. interest to have more democracies in the world. Even if the people in those countries don't like the US (something that is NOT the case in Taiwan - Taiwanese by in large LOVE the United States), it is better than to have the world run by tyrants who will actively work to subvert the interests of the United States.
Taiwan is nothing more than a sacirificial pawn in US/China relations.
You guys think that by the Taiwan Act the US would intervene should pan greens declare independence? You had 8 years, yet none of you did so. Why? Simple, you knew what the consequences would be - war; war in which no one would come to save your ass.
So spare me the lies that you care about Taiwan, no you don't, you only care that your party is in power, that's all.
If you cared about Taiwan even the least bit you'd at least be realistic.
Say what you will about the Ma administration, call him a ***** if it makes you feel better.
However, he's a realist, and has taken realistic measures to secure economic prowress for Taiwan's future - which is more than I can say about your jail bound political heads.
 
THis whole thread is completely dishonest.
Brutal tactics? What the OP clearly will not post is what resulted in the police force cracking down on the protestors.
Which was already shown here here and here in these various videos that you can view for yourself of the allegedly violent crack down.
But will any of this matter? No, because the OP has been able to dishonestly manipulate the democracy of Taiwan with being synonomous with the negative connotations of communist China - all without providing the slightest shred of evidence other than empty allegations.
The pan greens of Taiwan want to pretend that Taiwan is going backwards in democracy.
Have constitutional rights been suspended? No; have individual rights been wrongfully violated? again no. There is not a single shred of truth to these allegations, nothing but pan greens who now have no power whatsoever and are looking for every opportunity to deligitimize the now ruling party.
In typical fashion all we need to see are the mention of the word China, and the word attack and the poster wouldn't need to validate their arguments anymore due to the negative sentimental associations.

So, which of these things are you going to claim DID NOT happen?

1. Police ripped ROC flags from people on public streets.
2. Police confiscicated video cameras and other recording devices from the protest area.
3. A banner from the hotel were Chen Yunlin was staying was ripped down by authorities.
4. Police used water cannons to disperse protesters.
5. Police forcibly removed peaceful student protesters.
6. Police violently forced the closure of a music shop after it started playing Taiwanese patriotic music.

Freedom House has seen the evidence and is calling for an independent investigation. Unlike either of us, they have no axe to grind in this.
 
Discriminitory? un huh.

Sure, if people have been here for years and do not receive this kind of benefit, it is discriminatory. However, there are so many KMT laws in Taiwan that are targeted at foreigners it is mind boggling.

Now, it looks like at least foreign spouses will receive the benefit, but I know foreigners who have been here for decades who will not receive the vouchers. That IS discriminatory.
 
Except that the U.S. is not a democratic nation, it is a polyarchy, and this is how it wishes to fashion the other nations it invades. People are given the incidental freedom to vote every few years, but the candidates are selected by the elites in the country, and those elected have almost complete power.
The candidates are chosen based on the peoples votes in the primaries. If you are part of a party you can try to run for your party's nomination if you wish.

Those who are elected do not have complete power. What complete power do you think they have? Complete power to veto, create national monuments, etc... how terrifying! Powers of the President of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You are obviously not familiar with the legislative branch and the checks and balances of our government.

It is not about removing tyranny. Some tyrants are left in power for the simple fact that they cooperate with American elites. It's about economic power first and foremost, and this is what the American people have zero influence on. In American elections, the real issues are never talked about: globalization, free trade, economic liberalism, foreign policy, etc. But that is all the elites care about.
Our economy is our livelihood just like all other major powers. Its not a big surprise that threats to ones livelihood are handled seriously.

It might intervene in order to save "democratic" face since it signed an agreement back in history (after all, it must at least try to preserve the myth that it is a democratic nation serving democratic interests), but it would never go to war with China because the elites would not allow it to happen.
What liberal democracy have we fought in our entire history?

And we are not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic. We are deemed a "democracy" because the PEOPLE have an overwhelming say in the actions of the government. Our leaders LEAD but they are ELECTED by the people to lead us.
 
Now, the International Federation for Human Rights is expressing its concern over the repression of the protests earlier this month.

While the Blues here in Taiwan and their apologists are living in denial, human rights activists outside Taiwan are expressing their concern.

article here
 
So, which of these things are you going to claim DID NOT happen?

1. Police ripped ROC flags from people on public streets.
2. Police confiscicated video cameras and other recording devices from the protest area.
3. A banner from the hotel were Chen Yunlin was staying was ripped down by authorities.
4. Police used water cannons to disperse protesters.
5. Police forcibly removed peaceful student protesters.
6. Police violently forced the closure of a music shop after it started playing Taiwanese patriotic music.
Legitimate source or video?
Water cannon, oooo I'm terrified of water cannons. Why don't you be honest here and show everyone why water cannons were used. I've posted links to the videos where anyone can see the protestors for themselves and watch how the mob of protestors are assaulting police officers who were behind a baracade with bricks and stones. Then you can explain of your love of lawless mob rule. Perhaps you can educate all of us on angry rioting mob disperssion tactics that do not involve water cannons or other various non-lethal means of crowd control used by police the world over? Perhaps you can also educate us on just what it is the organizers of the event's intent was? What were the protesting against and why were they clubbing, stonning/bricking police officers?
Again, anyone can see the videos and judge for themselves.

ludahai said:
Freedom House has seen the evidence and is calling for an independent investigation. Unlike either of us, they have no axe to grind in this.
Freedom house was called to investigate by whom? THey just suddenly found it of particular interest to investigate?
 
Sure, if people have been here for years and do not receive this kind of benefit, it is discriminatory. However, there are so many KMT laws in Taiwan that are targeted at foreigners it is mind boggling.
Next I'm going to hear you preaching that foreigners should have the right to vote.:roll:

ludahai said:
Now, it looks like at least foreign spouses will receive the benefit, but I know foreigners who have been here for decades who will not receive the vouchers. That IS discriminatory.
Why should foreigners receive any benefits period?
 
Now, the International Federation for Human Rights is expressing its concern over the repression of the protests earlier this month.

While the Blues here in Taiwan and their apologists are living in denial, human rights activists outside Taiwan are expressing their concern.

article here
Forget the fact that Taipei Times is about as legitimate as the weekly standard or national review or some other freeper source.
What rights have been suppressed?
Were the water cannon's dialed up too high and some moronic thug got a little brusie on h/er ass?
 
Next I'm going to hear you preaching that foreigners should have the right to vote.:roll:

Just keep up building your strawmen. They are irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Why should foreigners receive any benefits period?

Because they pay taxes? :doh
 
Now, even the CONTROL YUAN is going to launch an investigation into the alleged abuses of police authority in Taipei earlier this month. While not exactly independent, it is significant. Try and deny THAT!

link
 
Forget the fact that Taipei Times is about as legitimate as the weekly standard or national review or some other freeper source.

Once again, the Taipei Times is reporting the news that the pan-Blue China Post ignores.

Here is the press release from FIDH.


FIDH said:
However, we fear these aggressions in fact aim at suppressing the right to freedom of expression of citizens. To supplement this violence, there are also unprecedented restrictions which clearly overpass the limits of ensuring security. For example, citizens have been restricted from displaying or carrying the national flag of Taiwan, forbidden to declare that “Taiwan is not part of China”, forbidden from carrying filming devices, and restricted from playing any music the authorities consider inappropriate.

You may hate the Taipei Times because it is green, but you have no justification for your claims against it. At least it reports the news. Three days in a row, it has ACCURATELY reproted news about concern into the violence of the police in Taipei earlier this month. In all three cases, the KMT censors prevented its publication in the China Post.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom