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Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

It is still a contract of property before the state, nothing more nothing less. And as it is a contract like every other contract before the state, there is no matter of ones race, sex or creed.
Historically, only the literate can enter into a contract before the state, then it was those who were of a certain sex and then race and not another; then it was changed to include everyone - with the exception of this property contract before the state for homosexuals.
Rate it as you will, it's still a contract before the state and thus there is no reason why gays should not be allowed.
But as you pointed out, it's a belief of yours - it was at one point also a belief that Africans were sub human - so what legitimacy does your belief have over my belief or that of anyone elses? Once the state made marriage a state issue, then like contracts of everything else there can be no limitations whatsoever of someone's sexuality.

So there you go, forcing your sexuality onto someone else. This is quite despicable.

No, not the creation of some new right, you have the right to choose anyone according to your sexuality because you are straight, but should you be gay you have said right taken away from you.
Homosexuals are simply asking for the equality of the same right to property and recognition under the state as heterosexuals already enjoy.

So if your neighbor were gay and they married that's disrespectful to you and your marriage? WTF??
I don't understand why so many people think that gay marriage is a threat to hetero marriage. We already have the gays, and they share property and assets, and can even inherit each other's property if a will is written.
How can allowing them to call their union a marriage change anything?

That should be the question for everyone who opposes gay marriage...
 
The funny thing is that a few years back there was a similar measure on the Utah ballot but instead of saying "marriage is between one man and one woman"....it said "marriage is between a man and a woman"......can you read between the lines.....:doh

yep, that is what it says, A man and A woman, with the word A being singular, not plural....so you are not reading between the lines, you are putting your own spin on it, like Rush does...:2razz:
Don't bet on plural marriage making a comeback in Utah or anywhere else with the LDS church's involvement. Membership would drop drastically, and immediately...
 
I don't understand why so many people think that gay marriage is a threat to hetero marriage. We already have the gays, and they share property and assets, and can even inherit each other's property if a will is written.
How can allowing them to call their union a marriage change anything?

That should be the question for everyone who opposes gay marriage...
First time I was ever asked the question about gay marriage I couldn't figure out a single reason that would possibly change anything.
Okay, gays marry.............. nope, nothing changes for me.
The opposition to gay marriage seems to be under the assumption that if gay's were allowed to marry suddenly that their rights would be somehow hindered, their marriage would be threatened, their families would be in jeopardy.
Um, like it or not, homosexuality is a reality. They're still going to be having gay sex whether you approve or disapprove - which seems to be where the big fuss is all over.
In a video posted in another thread it was saying how homosexuality would be taught to students in elementary school. So? I really don't see why that is such a horrible thing nor would it change anyone to suddenly become gay. If a person is gay, their gay, if not they won't be gay - it's not a choice it's just the way they are.
For the life of me I really can not understand why people are so homophobic. The way in which some in opposition have been against this almost makes you think that if gay marriage rights were finally equal to heterosexuals that all of a sudden families would be torn apart and everyone becoming gay.:shrug:
 
I know I dont need to tell you this, but liberals simply assume that any disagreement you have with them is based in hate and fear.

Not all political disagreements are based in hate and fear.

For example, obsession with the Second Amendment is merely based in redneck paranoia, not hate and fear. Opposition to free trade is merely based on ignorance to how an economy works, not hate and fear. Opposition to universal health care is merely based on a reluctance to change and (in some cases) a misplaced sense of greed, not hate and fear.

However, opposition to gay marriage *is* based on hate and fear. I'm willing to accept multiple viewpoints on most issues as long as they're well-defended. But there is NO logical argument to oppose gay marriage. None.

But I'll give you a chance. Please explain why gays should not be allowed to get married. And please answer this question without:
A) Making an argument that references any magical books, invisible men in the sky, or 2000-year-old space ghosts.
B) Making an argument that could also be used to deny sterile people (or people who don't want to have kids) the right to marry.
C) Making an argument that relies on some moronic logical fallacy such as "That's the way it's always been."
D) Making an argument in which the word "gays" can be substitute out for "blacks" without changing the basic premise of the argument.
E) Making an argument that relies on any meaningless words such as "sanctity" which you conveniently refuse to define.


I guarantee you that you can't.
 
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How can allowing them to call their union a marriage change anything?

That should be the question for everyone who opposes gay marriage...

Well, we just completed that experiment. So what exactly did change? For those that oppose it, what effect did "redefining marriage" do to your life and relationship? If they have such an obvious and detrimental effect on society, 18,000 gay marriages should have had a quantitative and measurable effect.

So have at it. Tell the world how gay marriage ruined your life, your relationship, and your children.

And... go.
 
By jfuh
There is no other reason other than that of religious faith that would be against gay marriage, ...
I have to disagree with this, and I am sure that there are others who do also.

I for one am not religious and it is my firmly held belief that marriage is a union between one man, and one woman. Not one person, and another.

Historically, it has always been between a man, and a woman, starting with it being a contract of property and then as mankind (in general) moved away from that concept, into it being about love.
Yet still, a union between one man, and one woman.

As far as I am concerned, everybody already has the same 'Right', the 'Right' to marry someone of the opposite gender (with limitations).
Anyone asking for same gender couples to be able to marry is asking for the creation of a new 'right'.

I also see this as an issue of disrespect on the part of those desiring such unions to try and call it a marriage.
i.e.: They want to be respected, but are showing disrespect by trying to usurp the term marriage for their own benefit.​


You are uniformed about the history of gay marriage and it is a common mistake to think it is a "new" issue, there have been documented cases in some native American tribes, ancient Greece, Egypt, part of Africa and Asia etc.. do a google search and read up on history.
 
coolguy said:
Historically, it has always been between a man, and a woman, starting with it being a contract of property and then as mankind (in general) moved away from that concept, into it being about love.
Yet still, a union between one man, and one woman.

So you acknowledge that the meaning of marriage has changed over time, from one where the women was contractually the man's property (and thus she received his last name), to one, post-suffrage, where the woman has the right to self-determination and the ability to even keep her last name if she so chooses. If what marriage means can change in that sense, then it can change in others as well.

The marriage contract has nothing to do with love. It is about legal recognition of the state. You don't need the state to officiate whether or not you love someone, but you *do* want the joint benefits of being married. If it were just about love, then the state wouldn't be involved at all.

I don't need a parental government telling me which marriages are and aren't "real". The same people who argue for smaller government are the same people who, ironically, want the government to step in and limit the definition of legal marriage contracts. It's one giant hypocrisy.

The only thing being usurped here is freedom of self-determination, and equal representation. A same-sex couple getting married has zero affect on the lives of others. It has nothing to do with school policy, as that is a separate issue altogether. Gays already walk the streets in big cities together, holding hands. If the argument is that children will be affected, then they are already being affected.

You can't stop social change and expansion of civil rights. The nature of social evolution will prevent this from being suppressed forever. I give it 10 years, 15 tops, until it is accepted nation wide.
 
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You can't stop social change and expansion of civil rights. The nature of social evolution will prevent this from being suppressed forever. I give it 10 years, 15 tops, until it is accepted nation wide.

These things take time, and education. People who hold beliefs counter to gay marriage have had those beliefs a long time, and they won't give them up easily. The blacks had to go thru the process, the gays will as well...
 
yep, that is what it says, A man and A woman, with the word A being singular, not plural....so you are not reading between the lines, you are putting your own spin on it, like Rush does...:2razz:
Don't bet on plural marriage making a comeback in Utah or anywhere else with the LDS church's involvement. Membership would drop drastically, and immediately...

That may be what it says now....but I lived in Utah for 28 years....and this is not to Diss Utah or Mormon in generally......(you are correct that my statement about hypocrites and mormons going hand in hand was unfair......I take that back).....however, when I lived there probably around 86-88.....there was a lot of controversey over the proposed marriage ban, Republicans resisted efforts to change the wording from "one man and one woman".......why would they resist that and want to keep it "a man and a woman"?.....if it was inadvertent and innocent as you suggest, why the fight to keep "one" out of it?
 
Not all political disagreements are based in hate and fear.

For example, obsession with the Second Amendment is merely based in redneck paranoia, not hate and fear. Opposition to free trade is merely based on ignorance to how an economy works, not hate and fear. Opposition to universal health care is merely based on a reluctance to change and (in some cases) a misplaced sense of greed, not hate and fear.

However, opposition to gay marriage *is* based on hate and fear. I'm willing to accept multiple viewpoints on most issues as long as they're well-defended. But there is NO logical argument to oppose gay marriage. None.

But I'll give you a chance. Please explain why gays should not be allowed to get married. And please answer this question without:
A) Making an argument that references any magical books, invisible men in the sky, or 2000-year-old space ghosts.
B) Making an argument that could also be used to deny sterile people (or people who don't want to have kids) the right to marry.
C) Making an argument that relies on some moronic logical fallacy such as "That's the way it's always been."
D) Making an argument in which the word "gays" can be substitute out for "blacks" without changing the basic premise of the argument.
E) Making an argument that relies on any meaningless words such as "sanctity" which you conveniently refuse to define.


I guarantee you that you can't.


Excellent post....however don't expect an answer from Stinger---er I mean Goobie....he'll start dancing the Goobie shuffle.
 
That may be what it says now....but I lived in Utah for 28 years....and this is not to Diss Utah or Mormon in generally......(you are correct that my statement about hypocrites and mormons going hand in hand was unfair......I take that back).....however, when I lived there probably around 86-88.....there was a lot of controversey over the proposed marriage ban, Republicans resisted efforts to change the wording from "one man and one woman".......why would they resist that and want to keep it "a man and a woman"?.....if it was inadvertent and innocent as you suggest, why the fight to keep "one" out of it?

I wasn't here then, so I accept your version of the history of the political climate here in Utah. IMO, tho, even if the SCOTUS makes it legal, it will be a cold day in Phoenix before the modern LDS woman accepts it...
 
I don't understand why so many people think that gay marriage is a threat to hetero marriage. We already have the gays, and they share property and assets, and can even inherit each other's property if a will is written.
How can allowing them to call their union a marriage change anything?

That should be the question for everyone who opposes gay marriage...

You don't understand because when you read the answers people like this person provides it doesn't register. So in these threads you continually parrot the same questions like we are just now debating it for the first times again.

Most Christians consider homosexuality an abomination as is stated many places in the Bible even though minor numbers do not or don't care. They don't want their children to see or become so, in fact they don't want the people they personally socialize with from being so. They don't want it taught as an acceptable even alternative of choice in schools. They do not want to see it acted out in public places the way heterosexuality has in recent decades been allowed. And indeed that is inequality but in this case one that actions by the minority would offend the majority. Most heterosexuals do not want to see two people of the same sex groping, grinding, kissing etc each other. It is revolting to them. Many would readily eliminate much of the heterosexuality content of such in the media and public display if that were put to vote so it is not really an issue of accepted inequality but more the result of a balance between freedoms in a liberal society where power is often in the hands of corporations and politicians that is somewhat tolerant of other lifestyles and behaviors even if they don't agree with theirs. But that tolerance has limits and tends to mean out of sight and out of mind. Do as you wish in private, in your own bedrooms, in your own private social venues, but please don't start to push it into the eyes of the general public. Yes we allow many minority sexual behaviors today in modern society like sadomasochism so, but those are not culturally acceptable when pushed in front of us.

Some of you advocates will twist what the Bible says in ways you feel invalidates what I stated, but such is not a position ever to be embraced by the majority of Christians because the logic doesn't hold up with most conservative scholars that dribbles down into the rest of those denomination's argumentation. Some of you regularly try to draw some of us here into that line of debate and most of the time we refuse to wade in to that morass simply because the argument has long since been sized anyone can easily research. The only usual objective seems to be for you to drag your opponent through the argumentive minefield of your choosing and try and make some inconsequential point as though it is a game. Not points that will change any minds with those reading these web board posts and will likely only result in name calling and frustration. So lets not debate that issue here as I am simply stating the standoff situation.

So back to your statement, why should simply allowing gays to call their unions marriage be a big deal? Well you people can call your unions marriage or whatever else you want even if such is not legally sanctioned as such. So I'm putting the shoe back on the foot of your own statement. It works both ways. Well the answer to that dilemna is that behind all the public blabbering are the lawyers, judges, professors, politicians, and gay radicals and for them that legal issue is the hidden agenda that this is all about. Otherwise you might simply be satisfied to call yourself married and all that have civil unions start doing so. The legal rights are nearly all there.

But that isn't going to satisfy the above hidden agenda side of your group and that is all too apparent to we on the other side trying to block your continual backdoor legal assault. For many years we on this side have been aware of some of your ultimate objectives. They have been gleefully proclaimed at times within your own communities and taken note of by the rest of us. The creeping continual advance towards your objective that removes all the issues and many more I outlined above has been all too obvious despite the fact the general public tends to keep their head in the sand and take the ever so slowing cultural change in stride without notice.

Within the pragmatism of some level of tolerance in our society we offer a foot and a week later you want a leg. You don't say anything about the waist connected to the leg but after we concede the leg a month later you clammor for the waist. And on and on it goes. In the mean time back at the time we offered the leg, we heard some talking about getting all the way up to the head. We asked what is this talk about the head and you all clam up and giggle.
 
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You don't understand because when you read the answers people like this person provides it doesn't register. So in these thread syou continually parrot the same questions like we are just now debating it for the first times again.

Most Christians consider homosexuality an abomination as is stated many places in the Bible even though minor numbers do not or don't care. They don't want their children to see or become so, in fact they don't want the people they personally socialize with from being so. They don't want it taught as an acceptable even alternative of choice in schools. They do not want to see it acted out in public places the way heterosexuality has in recent decades been allowed. And indeed that is inequality but in this case one that actions by the minority would offend the majority. Most heterosexuals do not want to see two people of the same sex groping, grinding, kissing etc each other. It is revolting to them. Many would readily eliminate much of the heterosexuality content of such in the media and public display if that were put to vote so it is not really an issue of accepted inequality but more the result of a balance between freedoms in a liberal society where power is often in the hands of corporations and politicians that is somewhat tolerant of other lifestyles and behaviors even if they don't agree with theirs. But that tolerance has limits and tends to mean out of site and out of mind. Do as you wish in private, in your own bedrooms, in your own private social venues, but please don't start to push it into the eyes of the general public. Yes we allow many minority sexual behaviors today in modern society like sadomasochism so, but those are not culturally acceptable when pushed in front of us.

Some of you advocates will twist what the Bible says in ways you feel invalidates what I stated, but such is not a position ever to be embraced by the majority of Christians because the logic doesn't hold up with most conservative scholars that dribbles down into the rest of those denomination's argumentation. Some of you regularly try to draw some of us here into that line of debate and most of the time we refuse to wade in to that morass simply because the argument has long since been sized anyone can easily research. The only usual objective seems to be for you to drag your opponent through the argumentive minefield of your choosing and try and make some inconsequential point as though it is a game. Not points that will change any minds with those reading these web board posts and will likely only result in name calling and frustration. So lets not debate that issue here as I am simply stating the standoff situation.

And you think that'll be different somehow if they're all getting "civil unions" as opposed to married? Explain to me how it will be even the slightest bit different. Explain to me how the last few months in California caused anything to be different for anyone. Explain to me how the laws in Massachusettes have made the state degrade into some nightmare.

And,
Most heterosexuals do not want to see two people of the same sex groping, grinding, kissing etc each other. It is revolting to them
Most PEOPLE don't want to see two people of ANY gender gropinga nd grinding and kissing each other.

Unless they're two hot women.

But I sure don't want to see a man and a woman doing it. So, does that mean I should advocate discrimination for those dirty heteros?
 
And you think that'll be different somehow if they're all getting "civil unions" as opposed to married? Explain to me how it will be even the slightest bit different. Explain to me ...

Unlike some you regularly debate here, I tend to avoid back and forth repetitive argumenation with such subjects that have already been monotonously discussed on these boards before as I see your ploy as simply so you can once more try to play some trip up the opposition's terse reply game with. So no thanks.

As for your two women exception, that is true only for most of the sleazy hetero porno crowd. For we more conservative socially it is indeed utterly revolting.
 
Unlike some you regularly debate here, I tend to avoid back and forth repetitive argumenation with such subjects that have already been monotonously discussed on these boards before as I see your ploy as simply so you can once more try to play some trip up the opposition's terse reply game with. So no thanks.

You aren't able to explain any more than anyone else has been able to. I get it. :)

As for your two women exception, that is true only for most of the sleazy hetero porno crowd. For we more conservative socially it is indeed utterly revolting.
Yeah okay :lol:
 
Unlike some you regularly debate here, I tend to avoid back and forth repetitive argumenation with such subjects that have already been monotonously discussed on these boards before as I see your ploy as simply so you can once more try to play some trip up the opposition's terse reply game with. So no thanks.

As for your two women exception, that is true only for most of the sleazy hetero porno crowd. For we more conservative socially it is indeed utterly revolting.

There is a simple solution for "christians"...stop digging into the OT of the Bible looking for obscure references to suit your prejudices, while blissfully ignoring all the other rules there that everybody except some Jews deem rediculous.
Next, look in the NT only for what Chrisitanity should be, and even there christians should place the words of CHRIST on the top of the pile. Jesus Christ never addressed the issue, so as far as I am concerned, it is a non-issue for us. If it is a sin, it is up to Christ to judge, not us mere mortals. And also if it is a moral issue, bear in mind that legislating morals has never worked.
Until judgement day, we should at least be tolerant if we can't find it within our "christian" hearts to demonstrate acceptance of our many differences.
 
Most heterosexuals do not want to see two people of the same sex groping, grinding, kissing etc each other. It is revolting to them.

Hate to burst your bubble, but banning gay marriage won't prevent that.
 
Not all political disagreements are based in hate and fear.

For example, obsession with the Second Amendment is merely based in redneck paranoia, not hate and fear. Opposition to free trade is merely based on ignorance to how an economy works, not hate and fear. Opposition to universal health care is merely based on a reluctance to change and (in some cases) a misplaced sense of greed, not hate and fear.

However, opposition to gay marriage *is* based on hate and fear. I'm willing to accept multiple viewpoints on most issues as long as they're well-defended. But there is NO logical argument to oppose gay marriage. None.

But I'll give you a chance. Please explain why gays should not be allowed to get married. And please answer this question without:
A) Making an argument that references any magical books, invisible men in the sky, or 2000-year-old space ghosts.
B) Making an argument that could also be used to deny sterile people (or people who don't want to have kids) the right to marry.
C) Making an argument that relies on some moronic logical fallacy such as "That's the way it's always been."
D) Making an argument in which the word "gays" can be substitute out for "blacks" without changing the basic premise of the argument.
E) Making an argument that relies on any meaningless words such as "sanctity" which you conveniently refuse to define.


I guarantee you that you can't.

I can give a reason. There's nothing in it for me. I'm not gay. I see no reason to allow another lesser minority group to jump in line in front of women.

As for your logic, make an argument in which the word "women" can be substituted out for "gays" without changing the basic premise of the argument.

I found Jon Stewart's comment of how "oppressed blacks" at the same moment of winning the presidency became the "oppressors of gays" interesting. I'm against gay rights because gay rights activists aren't for my rights and therefore are one of the enemies. Easy to understand.


 
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I can give a reason. There's nothing in it for me. I'm not gay. I see not reason to allow another lesser minority group to jump in line in front of women.
Umm... women are INCLUDED in the gay/lesbian marriage movement, hon. Not sure you realize or not, but women can be homosexual too.

So... what would they be getting in front of them FOR, exactly?
 
I'm against gay rights because gay rights activists aren't for my rights and therefore are one of the enemies. Easy to understand.
WTF are you talking about? The only people in the world that matter are heterosexual women? Everyone else is the enemy?
 
Umm... women are INCLUDED in the gay/lesbian marriage movement, hon. Not sure you realize or not, but women can be homosexual too.

So... what would they be getting in front of them FOR, exactly?

A constitutional amendment adding "gender" to the list of prohibited discriminations. But also the media spotlight on the topic of discriminatory realities.

Gays aren't paid less than straights. Last study I saw the average income for gays is higher. Women are paid less. Often much less. They also are denied promotions, are politically way under-represented, highly restricted in military service ranking potentials and are denied equality in management status.
 
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A constitutional amendment adding "gender" to the list of prohibited discriminations. But also the media spotlight on the topic of discriminatory realities.
All of the "prohibited discriminations" need to be removed.

Gays aren't paid less than straights. Last study I saw the average income for gays is paid higher. Women are paid less. Often much less. They also are denied promotions, are politically way under-represented and are denied equality in status.

Weird. I've not been paid less or denied promotions. Maybe the women that are paid less and denied promotions DESERVE to be paid less and denied promotions.

Methinks you've gone a little off the deep end of "women's issues". And it is women like you who give the rest of us women a bad name. The rest of us don't bitch and moan about "discrimination" if we're not given a promotion. Everything in the world doesn't revolve around your gender, ya know. As much as I'm sure you wish it did.
 
All of the "prohibited discriminations" need to be removed.



Weird. I've not been paid less or denied promotions. Maybe the women that are paid less and denied promotions DESERVE to be paid less and denied promotions.

Methinks you've gone a little off the deep end of "women's issues". And it is women like you who give the rest of us women a bad name. The rest of us don't bitch and moan about "discrimination" if we're not given a promotion. Everything in the world doesn't revolve around your gender, ya know. As much as I'm sure you wish it did.

Bonnie's not old enough to buy a legal beer.
She's no "woman", any more than my 18-year-old is a man, simply because he turned 18.
It takes kids a lot longer to grow up these days, I'm noticing.
 
Bonnie's not old enough to buy a legal beer.
She's no "woman", any more than my 18-year-old is a man, simply because he turned 18.
It takes kids a lot longer to grow up these days, I'm noticing.

Oh dear god... well, that explains a LOT.
 
I can give a reason. There's nothing in it for me. I'm not gay. I see no reason to allow another lesser minority group to jump in line in front of women.

As for your logic, make an argument in which the word "women" can be substituted out for "gays" without changing the basic premise of the argument.

I found Jon Stewart's comment of how "oppressed blacks" at the same moment of winning the presidency became the "oppressors of gays" interesting. I'm against gay rights because gay rights activists aren't for my rights and therefore are one of the enemies. Easy to understand.



Many women in the feminist movement are gay, so for you to say that gays are not for your rights is wrong. Also how is allowing the same civil rights you enjoy as a women who can get married moving you backwards?
There is a federal law to protect women from discrimination and only 17 states have laws protecting gays from discrimination.
And you are wrong there is a lot in it for you, because if the religious fanatics can get away with this how far away are they from trying to define marriage for procreation only? Will there come a day where people can't get married if they choose to not have kids or can't have them? Will they not allow marriage for seniors who can't have kids? Will there come a day where they will rule birth control is against their view of marriage? Where do we draw the line? If we allow them to make gays second class citizens you can bet women will be the next in their line of fire, don't think for one second these religious fanatics respect your rights as a women, throwing gays under the bus doesn't help you one bit, it hurts you and every one who doesn't want to live under extreme religious conditions.
Gays would not jump in front of women they would enjoy there place beside women where many have fought for the rights you enjoy, you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that you are more important then them!
 
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