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Thread: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

  1. #401
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    It is still a contract of property before the state, nothing more nothing less. And as it is a contract like every other contract before the state, there is no matter of ones race, sex or creed.
    Historically, only the literate can enter into a contract before the state, then it was those who were of a certain sex and then race and not another; then it was changed to include everyone - with the exception of this property contract before the state for homosexuals.
    Rate it as you will, it's still a contract before the state and thus there is no reason why gays should not be allowed.
    But as you pointed out, it's a belief of yours - it was at one point also a belief that Africans were sub human - so what legitimacy does your belief have over my belief or that of anyone elses? Once the state made marriage a state issue, then like contracts of everything else there can be no limitations whatsoever of someone's sexuality.

    So there you go, forcing your sexuality onto someone else. This is quite despicable.

    No, not the creation of some new right, you have the right to choose anyone according to your sexuality because you are straight, but should you be gay you have said right taken away from you.
    Homosexuals are simply asking for the equality of the same right to property and recognition under the state as heterosexuals already enjoy.

    So if your neighbor were gay and they married that's disrespectful to you and your marriage? WTF??
    I don't understand why so many people think that gay marriage is a threat to hetero marriage. We already have the gays, and they share property and assets, and can even inherit each other's property if a will is written.
    How can allowing them to call their union a marriage change anything?

    That should be the question for everyone who opposes gay marriage...
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  2. #402
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    The funny thing is that a few years back there was a similar measure on the Utah ballot but instead of saying "marriage is between one man and one woman"....it said "marriage is between a man and a woman"......can you read between the lines.....
    yep, that is what it says, A man and A woman, with the word A being singular, not plural....so you are not reading between the lines, you are putting your own spin on it, like Rush does...
    Don't bet on plural marriage making a comeback in Utah or anywhere else with the LDS church's involvement. Membership would drop drastically, and immediately...
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I don't understand why so many people think that gay marriage is a threat to hetero marriage. We already have the gays, and they share property and assets, and can even inherit each other's property if a will is written.
    How can allowing them to call their union a marriage change anything?

    That should be the question for everyone who opposes gay marriage...
    First time I was ever asked the question about gay marriage I couldn't figure out a single reason that would possibly change anything.
    Okay, gays marry.............. nope, nothing changes for me.
    The opposition to gay marriage seems to be under the assumption that if gay's were allowed to marry suddenly that their rights would be somehow hindered, their marriage would be threatened, their families would be in jeopardy.
    Um, like it or not, homosexuality is a reality. They're still going to be having gay sex whether you approve or disapprove - which seems to be where the big fuss is all over.
    In a video posted in another thread it was saying how homosexuality would be taught to students in elementary school. So? I really don't see why that is such a horrible thing nor would it change anyone to suddenly become gay. If a person is gay, their gay, if not they won't be gay - it's not a choice it's just the way they are.
    For the life of me I really can not understand why people are so homophobic. The way in which some in opposition have been against this almost makes you think that if gay marriage rights were finally equal to heterosexuals that all of a sudden families would be torn apart and everyone becoming gay.

  4. #404
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I know I dont need to tell you this, but liberals simply assume that any disagreement you have with them is based in hate and fear.
    Not all political disagreements are based in hate and fear.

    For example, obsession with the Second Amendment is merely based in redneck paranoia, not hate and fear. Opposition to free trade is merely based on ignorance to how an economy works, not hate and fear. Opposition to universal health care is merely based on a reluctance to change and (in some cases) a misplaced sense of greed, not hate and fear.

    However, opposition to gay marriage *is* based on hate and fear. I'm willing to accept multiple viewpoints on most issues as long as they're well-defended. But there is NO logical argument to oppose gay marriage. None.

    But I'll give you a chance. Please explain why gays should not be allowed to get married. And please answer this question without:
    A) Making an argument that references any magical books, invisible men in the sky, or 2000-year-old space ghosts.
    B) Making an argument that could also be used to deny sterile people (or people who don't want to have kids) the right to marry.
    C) Making an argument that relies on some moronic logical fallacy such as "That's the way it's always been."
    D) Making an argument in which the word "gays" can be substitute out for "blacks" without changing the basic premise of the argument.
    E) Making an argument that relies on any meaningless words such as "sanctity" which you conveniently refuse to define.


    I guarantee you that you can't.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-08-08 at 02:00 AM.
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    How can allowing them to call their union a marriage change anything?

    That should be the question for everyone who opposes gay marriage...
    Well, we just completed that experiment. So what exactly did change? For those that oppose it, what effect did "redefining marriage" do to your life and relationship? If they have such an obvious and detrimental effect on society, 18,000 gay marriages should have had a quantitative and measurable effect.

    So have at it. Tell the world how gay marriage ruined your life, your relationship, and your children.

    And... go.
    The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function. -- Dr. Albert Bartlett

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    By jfuh
    There is no other reason other than that of religious faith that would be against gay marriage, ...
    I have to disagree with this, and I am sure that there are others who do also.

    I for one am not religious and it is my firmly held belief that marriage is a union between one man, and one woman. Not one person, and another.

    Historically, it has always been between a man, and a woman, starting with it being a contract of property and then as mankind (in general) moved away from that concept, into it being about love.
    Yet still, a union between one man, and one woman.

    As far as I am concerned, everybody already has the same 'Right', the 'Right' to marry someone of the opposite gender (with limitations).
    Anyone asking for same gender couples to be able to marry is asking for the creation of a new 'right'.

    I also see this as an issue of disrespect on the part of those desiring such unions to try and call it a marriage.
    i.e.: They want to be respected, but are showing disrespect by trying to usurp the term marriage for their own benefit.

    You are uniformed about the history of gay marriage and it is a common mistake to think it is a "new" issue, there have been documented cases in some native American tribes, ancient Greece, Egypt, part of Africa and Asia etc.. do a google search and read up on history.
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy
    Historically, it has always been between a man, and a woman, starting with it being a contract of property and then as mankind (in general) moved away from that concept, into it being about love.
    Yet still, a union between one man, and one woman.
    So you acknowledge that the meaning of marriage has changed over time, from one where the women was contractually the man's property (and thus she received his last name), to one, post-suffrage, where the woman has the right to self-determination and the ability to even keep her last name if she so chooses. If what marriage means can change in that sense, then it can change in others as well.

    The marriage contract has nothing to do with love. It is about legal recognition of the state. You don't need the state to officiate whether or not you love someone, but you *do* want the joint benefits of being married. If it were just about love, then the state wouldn't be involved at all.

    I don't need a parental government telling me which marriages are and aren't "real". The same people who argue for smaller government are the same people who, ironically, want the government to step in and limit the definition of legal marriage contracts. It's one giant hypocrisy.

    The only thing being usurped here is freedom of self-determination, and equal representation. A same-sex couple getting married has zero affect on the lives of others. It has nothing to do with school policy, as that is a separate issue altogether. Gays already walk the streets in big cities together, holding hands. If the argument is that children will be affected, then they are already being affected.

    You can't stop social change and expansion of civil rights. The nature of social evolution will prevent this from being suppressed forever. I give it 10 years, 15 tops, until it is accepted nation wide.
    Last edited by Orion; 11-08-08 at 07:15 AM.

  8. #408
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post

    You can't stop social change and expansion of civil rights. The nature of social evolution will prevent this from being suppressed forever. I give it 10 years, 15 tops, until it is accepted nation wide.
    These things take time, and education. People who hold beliefs counter to gay marriage have had those beliefs a long time, and they won't give them up easily. The blacks had to go thru the process, the gays will as well...
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    yep, that is what it says, A man and A woman, with the word A being singular, not plural....so you are not reading between the lines, you are putting your own spin on it, like Rush does...
    Don't bet on plural marriage making a comeback in Utah or anywhere else with the LDS church's involvement. Membership would drop drastically, and immediately...
    That may be what it says now....but I lived in Utah for 28 years....and this is not to Diss Utah or Mormon in generally......(you are correct that my statement about hypocrites and mormons going hand in hand was unfair......I take that back).....however, when I lived there probably around 86-88.....there was a lot of controversey over the proposed marriage ban, Republicans resisted efforts to change the wording from "one man and one woman".......why would they resist that and want to keep it "a man and a woman"?.....if it was inadvertent and innocent as you suggest, why the fight to keep "one" out of it?
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  10. #410
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Not all political disagreements are based in hate and fear.

    For example, obsession with the Second Amendment is merely based in redneck paranoia, not hate and fear. Opposition to free trade is merely based on ignorance to how an economy works, not hate and fear. Opposition to universal health care is merely based on a reluctance to change and (in some cases) a misplaced sense of greed, not hate and fear.

    However, opposition to gay marriage *is* based on hate and fear. I'm willing to accept multiple viewpoints on most issues as long as they're well-defended. But there is NO logical argument to oppose gay marriage. None.

    But I'll give you a chance. Please explain why gays should not be allowed to get married. And please answer this question without:
    A) Making an argument that references any magical books, invisible men in the sky, or 2000-year-old space ghosts.
    B) Making an argument that could also be used to deny sterile people (or people who don't want to have kids) the right to marry.
    C) Making an argument that relies on some moronic logical fallacy such as "That's the way it's always been."
    D) Making an argument in which the word "gays" can be substitute out for "blacks" without changing the basic premise of the argument.
    E) Making an argument that relies on any meaningless words such as "sanctity" which you conveniently refuse to define.


    I guarantee you that you can't.

    Excellent post....however don't expect an answer from Stinger---er I mean Goobie....he'll start dancing the Goobie shuffle.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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