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Thread: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    There are still millions of provisional ballots and absentee ballots that have not been counted, so we still have a little while before we no for sure if California passed prop h8te or not.
    You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it. -Malcolm X

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecenter View Post
    I like you don't believe that "marriage" should be the word, because it offends people on the right
    Allowing blacks to sit in the front of the bus and to drink from the same drinking fountains as the rest of society probably offended many on the "right" as well. But we changed the laws in spite of it because the laws were unfair, discriminatory and wrong.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Allowing blacks to sit in the front of the bus and to drink from the same drinking fountains as the rest of society probably offended many on the "right" as well. But we changed the laws in spite of it because the laws were unfair, discriminatory and wrong.
    In spite of the wishes of a great deal of the Democratic party, who passed pretty much all of the segregationist and Jim Crow laws, yes. "Right" indeed.

    (Sure, if "right" simply means "bad.")
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    Negative Rights

    "Negative Rights"
    Quote Originally Posted by veganshawn View Post
    It is hateful to say that one loving couple shouldn't have the same rights as another to marry be it because the couple are from different religions, different shades of skin color, different parts of the world, the same gender or any other reason that religion has tried to bar certain groups the right to marry.
    The right to marry -- aka. form civil unions exists; there are no laws against the formation of civil unions -- aka. marriages; the negative right to form civil contracts exists.

    This issue is about requesting, and being granted, positive obligations of the public government; yet, the public government is not mandated to equally endow positive rights.
    Last edited by Monk-Eye; 11-06-08 at 05:33 PM.

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    In spite of the wishes of a great deal of the Democratic party, who passed pretty much all of the segregationist and Jim Crow laws, yes. "Right" indeed.

    (Sure, if "right" simply means "bad.")
    It was placed in quotes to make reference to the post I was responding to.

    The point being.....just because changing something that is wrong might offend someone is generally not a good reason to resist doing the right thing.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Allowing blacks to sit in the front of the bus and to drink from the same drinking fountains as the rest of society probably offended many on the "right" as well. But we changed the laws in spite of it because the laws were unfair, discriminatory and wrong.
    You should probably have read my entire post. I stated that I believe we should come to middle and allow for all people to be happy. It's a very simple process, allow civil unions for those who are "gay" and allow "marriage" for those who are not. We have to afford the same rights for all people in our nation. But that doesn't mean that we have to call it the same. They don't call it the same thing in Spain and everyone there is happy. Civil Unions with full status rights are the perfect solutions. If you would pay attention to what I am saying you would fully grasp what I am hoping for. On a Federal level we need to protect the rights of both homo/hetero union. If the word "marriage" upsets people, then we change that and offer the same rights branded differently.

    Why you would compare that to Jim Crowe laws is beyond me. I'm from the South and I would never advocate taking away the rights of any human being. These are two different issues from two different eras.
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    downthecenter - the reason why people compare them to Jim Crowe laws is the separate but equal notion of marriage vs civil union.
    You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it. -Malcolm X

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    asking for legal experts to clear this up...
    Just what is the distinctionn in the eyes of the law between marraige and civil union?
    One is recognition. Marriages are recognized by both the state govenrments and the federal. Civil unions are not, and may be invalidated or ignored depending on which state you move to after getting one.
    The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function. -- Dr. Albert Bartlett

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by veganshawn View Post
    downthecenter - the reason why people compare them to Jim Crowe laws is the separate but equal notion of marriage vs civil union.
    Shawn- I understand why they compare the two. But again it is two very different ideas. Jim Crow laws were separate but equal laws. I'm not talking a definition of separation. I'm not saying that we redefine and reconstitute Jim Crow type laws. I'm saying that we simply affirm that Civil Unions and Marriage are equal institutions and have the same rights and privileges. It is okay to define marriage in many different forms. If the "marriage" word is so divisive, yet many Americans would accept "civil unions" why not push forward with that. Why not allow every person in this nation to have rights as "joint tenants in common" whether they be straight or gay. That is what I am stating. Jim Crow laws were segregation laws that were meant to subjugate a "lesser" people. This idea is both antiquated and does not fit into what we want here.

    Give the "right" their marriage and give the "left" their civil unions. It's really quite simple. Every person should have the same privileges. Regardless of what people want to call it.
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecenter View Post
    Shawn- I understand why they compare the two. But again it is two very different ideas. Jim Crow laws were separate but equal laws. I'm not talking a definition of separation. I'm not saying that we redefine and reconstitute Jim Crow type laws. I'm saying that we simply affirm that Civil Unions and Marriage are equal institutions and have the same rights and privileges. It is okay to define marriage in many different forms. If the "marriage" word is so divisive, yet many Americans would accept "civil unions" why not push forward with that. Why not allow every person in this nation to have rights as "joint tenants in common" whether they be straight or gay. That is what I am stating. Jim Crow laws were segregation laws that were meant to subjugate a "lesser" people. This idea is both antiquated and does not fit into what we want here.

    Give the "right" their marriage and give the "left" their civil unions. It's really quite simple. Every person should have the same privileges. Regardless of what people want to call it.
    I think given the choice most would take civil union over nothing, but what happens to a marriage like mine where my wife and I are both agnostic, if we define marriage only by religious terms do I have to call my marriage a civil union? Where do we draw the line on religious intolerance?
    And in many cases the same people (who passed this law) would try and ban civil unions for being to much like marriage? I know that many on the right say it isn't about h8te, but I beg to differ.
    You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it. -Malcolm X

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