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Thread: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Denying it to one group of people IS discrimination.


    Why should they be content with being discriminated against? With "separate but equal"? Not to mention the fact that civil unions don't give the same legal privileges.

    Why weren't blacks happy not being allowed to marry whites? Why weren't women happy not being allowed to vote?

    I agree that marriage SHOULD be a religious ceremony ONLY. I don't think the state should be involved at all. No rights or priviileges should be granted to anyone, it should just be a religious thing.

    However, that's NOT the way it is. It's not a religious ceremony, it's a legal contract that CAN be celebrated with a religious ceremony but certainly does not have to be. And as it is now, what the anti-gay marriage folks are doing is legalizing discrimination in the name of religion for something that is a legal contract.
    Isn't marriage a form of slavery? Should we allow the enslavement of a certain segment of the population? I believe there is a Constitutional amendment forbidding it.
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Marriage is not discrimination. It is a ceremony between a man and a woman to create a binding contract in the eyes of God to procreate and have children.
    Gods do not issue the marriage license.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    No, it doesn't mean that. It means that given the same situation (i.e. man marrying a woman) all must be treated equally. Man marrying man is NOT the same situation, so equal protection does NOT apply. If you can find a SCOTUS decision where it does, I will stand down, but I don't think it exists.
    Let's make this a logic sentence:

    "All women have the right to X, but men do not have this right."

    If X is "drive a car," surely you would agree that this law is gender discrimination and violates the 14th amendment.

    If X is "marry a man," then the same should apply. I have not changed any of the fundamentals other than what X is.
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    Cultural Ignorance

    "Cultural Ignorance"
    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Doctor
    Why don't you explain why Gay activists cannot be content with Civil Unions?
    Why should they have to be? Why aren't churches content with the government allowing gay marriage, and not forcing them to perform them if it goes against their belief system?
    The government has not outlawed or prohibited the formation of civil unions (marriages); the government (at the direction of the public) chooses to allow registration of certain styled civil unions (marriages) with the purpose of providing some benefit.

    That is how positive rights work, and positive rights may not be equally endowed; see affirmative action.

    ***

    The fundamental issue to confront is the entitlement society, which perceives that egalitarianism is mandated by the constitution through some generalized association with terms "equal rights" and anti-discrimination.

    The constitution of most liberal democracies is written in terms of negative rights, in terms of restrictions on government, as obligations of government to abstain from certain actions.
    Negative rights contain an inherent property which facilitates the "equal protection of laws".

    Second and third generation rights (positive rights, positive obligations) are argued against because they can overwhelm the first generation rights (negative rights, negative obligations) of individuals -- the right to be left alone.

    As positive rights can be instituted in the range from responsible to ridiculous, one is encouraged to emphasize a deontology of negative rights and remain aversive to the consequentialism of postive rights.
    Last edited by Monk-Eye; 11-06-08 at 04:14 PM.

  5. #235
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Gods do not issue the marriage license.
    It would be cool if they did, though. I mean, if I was going to get married and Zeus signed my license by hurling a lightning bolt at it, then i'd be ecstatic! Plus I think the divorce rate would go down, and there would be some really cool jokes going around, things like, "I knew my marriage was doomed from the start when Cthulu issued our license".

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Isn't marriage a form of slavery? Should we allow the enslavement of a certain segment of the population? I believe there is a Constitutional amendment forbidding it.
    I don't disagree. I just think that everyone should be allowed to choose whether or not to willingly allow themselves to be enslaved.

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    [I]A Divine Institution.

    The Bible presents marriage as a divine institution.
    Here and now I could care less about the bible. IMHO it is not a rule book.

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I don't disagree. I just think that everyone should be allowed to choose whether or not to willingly allow themselves to be enslaved.
    Bear in mind that it carries a death sentence, as in "til death do us part"....
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Excellent graphic showing county by county where the margins for or against were in the state:

    Proposition 8 and Proposition 22: A tale of two votes - Los Angeles Times

    Obviously only the populous SF Bay Area/central coast was strongly for the amendment while large areas of the state were against it. I would speculate that many more in the Bay Area would have rejected it had it not been from the overwhelming local media barrage condemning the proposition. Thus the usual bogus shame ploy obvious worked on many who probably don't have strong opinions and could be easily influenced otherwise in the future. Outside of LA County and the SF Bay Area counties, I doubt the same sex avocates can influence much in the way of change in the future. Some more demographics from the exit polling:

    cbs5.com - Black, Religious Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I don't discriminate or hate; that is your forte'. I take offense with your desperate attempts to suggest that I do.

    There is nothing hateful or indiscriminate about merely questioning the reasons same sex couples so desperately want to redefine a term that has been with us for over 2000 years and FALSLEY claim it as a RIGHT.

    The purpose of marriage between a man and a woman is to provide a contract that binds them in a solemn promise before God for life to procreate and create and raise children as a FAMILY. Gays cannot procreate, it is a LIFE style. Only a MAN and a WOMAN can.

    Your desperate hysterical drama has been noted however.

    I expect the gay activists and disrespectful Liberal activists to carry on with their hysterics and law breaking behavior. After all, the ONLY laws they follow are the laws THEY agree with. Thank God the majority of us don't all act out in such an immature, irrational and narcissistic way.
    Marriage in the *Christian view has been a religious institution for 2000 years. Also in the Christian view is marriage only for procreate, there are many married couples that don't believe in procreation or would rather adopt so with this view they could be the next victims of religious prosecution. In some cultures marriage is also used to gain property or other goods.

    It is hateful to say that one loving couple shouldn't have the same rights as another to marry be it because the couple are from different religions, different shades of skin color, different parts of the world, the same gender or any other reason that religion has tried to bar certain groups the right to marry.

    What about native populations of the 7 continents that where married by elders of the tribe or others where marriage was nothing more then a man picking a mate and moving her into his dwelling.

    Sadly a lot of religious people have a Christian and Eurocentric view of the world, they refuse to understand that not everyone in the world lives the way they do, they then turn around and try and force people to conform to their view point, in many cases people who refused to conform where murdered or wiped out (see Native American genocide), I fear the dark path where banning gays marriage will lead to, I fear intolerant religious people who are so convinced their way is the only way that they will stop at nothing to force people to conform or die. History is stained in blood that shows I have good reason to fear.

    *I use the term Christian because you yourself are using what sounds like Christian arguments, you claim to not go to church but I am guessing you still hold certain Christian views and the main backers of Prop H8te where Christian, I know other Religions like Islam and Judaism had similar people who are intolerant of homosexuality, I didn't want to single out just one group of hateful people, but it saves time typing out one group.
    Last edited by veganshawn; 11-06-08 at 05:05 PM.
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