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Thread: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    On what grounds does the SC have to supercede a state constitutional amendment?
    This is a marriage which is a state issue, not federal, so I don't know A) on what grounds the USC has to intervene; B) What bearing the constitution has on marriage.
    Because the Supreme Court interprets the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Constitution is the Alpha and Omega. A State cannot amend their Constitution to ban black people from voting - that would be against the United States Constitution. With the issue of same-sex marriage, banning it is clearly against the Equal Protection clause in the Fourteenth Amendment (regardless of what the "legal scholars" on this forum believe). If you ban same-sex marriage, you must ban all marriage.

    State governments are not subunits of the federal government; each state is sovereign and does not report in any constitutional way to the federal government. The U.S. Constitution and federal law, however, supersede state constitutions and state laws in areas where they are in disagreement

    State Governments in About America: How the United States is Governed
    Last edited by Macintosh; 11-06-08 at 12:02 AM.
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Macintosh View Post
    Because the Supreme Court interprets the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Constitution is the Alpha and Omega. A State cannot amend their Constitution to ban black people from voting - that would be against the United States Constitution. With the issue of same-sex marriage, banning it is clearly against the Equal Protection clause in the Fourteenth Amendment (regardless of what the "legal scholars" on this forum believe). If you ban same-sex marriage, you must ban all marriage.
    State governments are not subunits of the federal government; each state is sovereign and does not report in any constitutional way to the federal government. The U.S. Constitution and federal law, however, supersede state constitutions and state laws in areas where they are in disagreement
    State Governments in About America: How the United States is Governed
    That's all fine, and given that the US constitution says nothing nor mentions anything of marriage, I still don't see how the USSC has grounds to intervene on the matter.
    Marriage liscence are issued by the state, not by the federal government - as are drivers liscence - I still don't understand how the 14th would make any difference to that matter whatsoever.

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    That's all fine, and given that the US constitution says nothing nor mentions anything of marriage, I still don't see how the USSC has grounds to intervene on the matter.
    Marriage liscence are issued by the state, not by the federal government - as are drivers liscence - I still don't understand how the 14th would make any difference to that matter whatsoever.
    It's not about marriage - it's about laws and Equal Protection. Allowing one group of similarly situated people to do a thing, but not allowing another group of similarly situated people to do a thing is not Equal Protection, and is therefore unconstitutional.
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Macintosh View Post
    It's not about marriage - it's about laws and Equal Protection. Allowing one group of similarly situated people to do a thing, but not allowing another group of similarly situated people to do a thing is not Equal Protection, and is therefore unconstitutional.
    How does the 14th provide that authority then?

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    How does the 14th provide that authority then?
    I'm not sure I understand your question. But here is the text of Section 1 of said amendment. The most important part will be in red.

    Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    "Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices." - Voltaire

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Macintosh View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your question. But here is the text of Section 1 of said amendment. The most important part will be in red.

    Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    How does "protection of the laws" factor? To the point, which "laws" are being violated?
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneCrow View Post
    How does "protection of the laws" factor? To the point, which "laws" are being violated?
    I don't know if I understand your question, but I think your question is asked with the assumption that laws are simply rules. Not so. Laws can be rules, principles, procedures, or any type of legislation, such as the right to marry. It's about entitlement. Opposite-sex couples who are married are entitled to certain rights that same-sex couples are not, because they cannot be married.
    Last edited by Macintosh; 11-06-08 at 12:37 AM.
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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    If the people are going to grant the government the power to validate marriage (which we have) then we are also granting them the power to determine what isn't a valid marriage. People shouldn't be surprised when their group isn't one of the chosen few.
    The real answer here is that government becoming involved in marriage, a wholly religious ceremony with 2000+ years to back it up, violates the 1st Amendment's separation of Church and State Clause. Unless the government backs out of marriage this is going to be a constant problem. If gays get the government to recognize their marriage (not likely), Polygamists will be next in line and if they get the recognition then people will ask the government to recognize marriages to family members. Then the totally absurd like marriage to animals or furniture.
    On this issue, for once, I would like to see freedom and liberty prevail over convenience and government handouts.

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    I must admit, I'm enjoying all the pain you angry whining advocates are relating on this thread today. Not because I have ever persecuted gays, but rather because of all the previous name calling and shame ploys you continually have tried to cast over we conservatives on threads here this year on the subject. Not to mention the related don't ask don't tell threads.

    Some of you are even suggesting the US Supreme Court will eventually overturn this new California law? Of course that means it would also be overturning all the other state constitutional laws that have already been passed in two dozen states and are common law in another dozen or so. Gee what do you think would happen my short sighted opponents if the lets say for hypothetical sake, liberal in congress in the near future replaced present retiring members of the court, and then such a court tried to force that on the country? Would certainly outrage a lot of Christians, conservatives and the halls of congress representing those people. The current vote here in California might have been close, but one can be certain given the even greater support in most others states, that a cry for a US constitutional amendment would be certain. Your side simply does not have the numbers in the current generations. So go stir this up some more you avocates just like you just did.
    Last edited by 70s_guy; 11-06-08 at 01:13 AM.

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    Re: Ban on gay marriage in CA still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by Macintosh View Post
    I don't know if I understand your question, but I think your question is asked with the assumption that laws are simply rules. Not so. Laws can be rules, principles, procedures, or any type of legislation, such as the right to marry. It's about entitlement. Opposite-sex couples who are married are entitled to certain rights that same-sex couples are not, because they cannot be married.
    The law is applied equally. They state that NO ONE can marry someone of the same sex. Since this law applies to EVERYONE it is applied EQUALLY.

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