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Exxon ordered to turn over 40 years of climate change research

BrewerBob said:
I consider myself an AGW fatalist. Meaning at this point there is nothing we can, or will, do to stop it. But humans are the masters of adaptation. I would like us to stop wasting our energy on placing blame and start preparing for the ramifications. I certainly don't think it will be the end of civilization or anything. But the longer we wait to prepare the bigger logistical pain in the ass it will be.
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That's because you don't understand that the objective isn't clean air, but political power to destroy capitalism.
 
Winchester said:
Exactly my take, it's gonna happen and we're incapable of stopping it, best to just prepare.
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Yes you both are right, but lets not forget that by doing something now the extent or severity of the effects could also be reduced.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Lot's of stuff we can do to change it, Vertical Farming, City redesigns, using sugar beets instead of corn for alternative fuels, algae farms, planting lots and lots of hemp where the corn used to grow. I could actually sit here all day coming up with ways to pull carbon out of the air. In fact we could go so far in the opposite direction we could cause a mini ice age. But none of that is profitable for the people currently buying our government...
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We're incapable as a species to all get on board of such ventures, meaning they ain't gonna happen on any kind of a scale to do diddly squat.
 
American said:
That's because you don't understand that the objective isn't clean air, but political power to destroy capitalism.
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... and career security & longevity at public expense.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
The same grounds that forced the tobacco companys to release documents proving they new tobacco cause lung cancer...

Oh and it is only the fate of the world in the balance... Exxon's research supposedly points to catastrophic occurrences happening in the later part of the 21st century. Maybe, if there isn't grounds we should make grounds. Unless your saying we should just ignore information that could save us, because it would be wrong to force a corporation to release documents? I'm sure that's not the case...
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The theory that doubling the CO2 level would cause some warming is well over a century old,
http://www.rsc.org/images/Arrhenius1896_tcm18-173546.pdf
The climate's sensitivity to the added CO2 after more than a century of research, still ranges from,
no big deal, to OMG we are all going to die!!!. (1.5 to 4.5 °C).
The observed data supports the low end or No big deal area.
https://www.ethz.ch/content/dam/eth...documents/group/climphys/knutti/otto13nat.pdf
https://niclewis.files.wordpress.co..._clim-dyn2014_accepted-reformatted-edited.pdf
There are few who can question the enormous benefit of the energy from fossil fuels has been for humanity.
Also the added CO2 may be responsible for the recent outbreak of greening around the planet.
Greening of the Earth and its drivers : Nature Climate Change : Nature Research
If any harm has actually been caused, it would be difficult to qualify the warming from CO2 as the cause.
All things considered burning fossil fuels for energy seems to have been a net positive for society,
the only real down side, is that they are a finite supply.
The good news is that we can now make our own carbon neutral hydrocarbon fuels from atmospheric CO2, water and energy.
It will cross economic viability at about $90 a barrel oil.
It will also likely be companies like Exxon who do the work.
 
American said:
That's because you don't understand that the objective isn't clean air, but political power to destroy capitalism.
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Oh contraire, it will be capitalism that saves us and cleans our air. If you think the energy market is a free market, you need to take another look. We don't need to penalize anyone. WE just have to even the playing field for alternative energy. Demand will take care of the rest. Your mistake is thinking the Oil Oligarchs are capitalists. When in fact they are not, and do nothing but lobby for laws that prevent alternative energies from getting a foothold.

You think that's capitalism?
 
prometeus said:
Right, because honesty and integrity have nothing to do with being the nations top diplomat.
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You would know being a John Kerry supporter.
 
prometeus said:
Right, because honesty and integrity have nothing to do with being the nations top diplomat.
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Are you implying that Mr Tillerson is not well respected around the world? He sure seems to be!
We can only hope he does not require donations to his charity before even talking to those with interest with the United States.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Oh contraire, it will be capitalism that saves us and cleans our air. If you think the energy market is a free market, you need to take another look. We don't need to penalize anyone. WE just have to even the playing field for alternative energy. Demand will take care of the rest. Your mistake is thinking the Oil Oligarchs are capitalists. When in fact they are not, and do nothing but lobby for laws that prevent alternative energies from getting a foothold.

You think that's capitalism?
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What legislation has prevented alternative energy from getting a foothold?
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Oh contraire, it will be capitalism that saves us and cleans our air. If you think the energy market is a free market, you need to take another look. We don't need to penalize anyone. WE just have to even the playing field for alternative energy. Demand will take care of the rest. Your mistake is thinking the Oil Oligarchs are capitalists. When in fact they are not, and do nothing but lobby for laws that prevent alternative energies from getting a foothold.

You think that's capitalism?
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I think Obama spending $billions on green energy projects that fail, speaks for itself.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Oh contraire, it will be capitalism that saves us and cleans our air. If you think the energy market is a free market, you need to take another look. We don't need to penalize anyone. WE just have to even the playing field for alternative energy. Demand will take care of the rest. Your mistake is thinking the Oil Oligarchs are capitalists. When in fact they are not, and do nothing but lobby for laws that prevent alternative energies from getting a foothold.

You think that's capitalism?
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You think "evening the playing field" for clean energy is capitalism? Its called crony corporatism. Green energy has been getting direct subsidies op top of the same capital tax breaks fossil energies get. Its picking winners and losers and it worked so well with Solyndra, didn't it?
 
Reading this thread is as close as you will get to traveling back in time and listening to people scoff about the earth being round.
 
Winchester said:
We're incapable as a species to all get on board of such ventures, meaning they ain't gonna happen on any kind of a scale to do diddly squat.
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That's the thing, capitalism would do it for us, if we stopped kissing big oils metaphorical ass.
 
OpportunityCost said:
You think "evening the playing field" for clean energy is capitalism? Its called crony corporatism. Green energy has been getting direct subsidies op top of the same capital tax breaks fossil energies get. Its picking winners and losers and it worked so well with Solyndra, didn't it?
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The wrong type of green energy setup up to do poorly in an attempt to show the public only fossil fuels are viable, and evening the playing field is more about ending oil and corn subsidies more than giving subsidies to green energy. Nice try, but I hate subsidizing anything. And I can see the current green subsidies as the straw man they are.

If you want to talk about a massive tidal generator along both costs, that could completely replace coal powered electricity, that's another story...
 
American said:
I think Obama spending $billions on green energy projects that fail, speaks for itself.
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Sure does, tells me Obama chose losers to keep his corporate masters happy. Nothing I support calls for subsidies. In fact in calls for ending subsidies...
 
ThoughtEx. said:
"A Massachusetts judge ordered Exxon (XOM) on Wednesday to hand over more than four decades of the company's climate change research.

The court rejected Exxon's emergency motion to kill the demand from Massachusetts Attorney General Maura Healey, who is investigating allegations the company ignored internal scientific research going back to the 1970s.

The ruling came on the same day that longtime Exxon boss Rex Tillerson was being grilled by Congress about the company's climate change tactics at his secretary of state hearing. Tillerson, who stepped down last month as CEO after a decade in charge, repeatedly ducked questions about the issue from U.S. Senators."

Exxon ordered to turn over 40 years of climate change research - Jan. 12, 2017

Reminds me of when we figured out smoking causes lung cancer, up til then tobacco companies had been advertising as a healthy product recommended by doctors. Not only was that not true, but the tobacco companies new it, and covered it up. Spread propaganda and doubt of science, really they fought to the bitter end to try and convince the people smoking was healthy.

Now it seems our Oil Companies are doing the same. It turns out Exxon did a lot to prove Co2 buildup will have negative consequence, before business interests forced their scientists to find business friendly results. They could have pioneered alternative energy, but for the small minded men at the top.
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Thank God Hillary lost and this will go absolutley no where.

Jan 20th is right around the corner !
 
ThoughtEx. said:
That's the thing, capitalism would do it for us, if we stopped kissing big oils metaphorical ass.
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Before you demonize big oil too much, you should realize that it will likely be market forces
acting on big oil that will save humanity from a looming energy problems.
The cheap and easy oil has been found and exploited.
The last fracking boom was so successful that it drove many oil production companies
out of business. When the current surplus is depleted (which will happen faster thanks to fracking),
few will risk drilling new wells, because the lack of return on investment is what sent the companies into
bankruptcy.
The only companies who own the refineries to make man made fuels, and have existing distribution infrastructure,
are the very oil companies who many would like to destroy.
 
longview said:
Before you demonize big oil too much, you should realize that it will likely be market forces
acting on big oil that will save humanity from a looming energy problems.
The cheap and easy oil has been found and exploited.
The last fracking boom was so successful that it drove many oil production companies
out of business. When the current surplus is depleted (which will happen faster thanks to fracking),
few will risk drilling new wells, because the lack of return on investment is what sent the companies into
bankruptcy.
The only companies who own the refineries to make man made fuels, and have existing distribution infrastructure,
are the very oil companies who many would like to destroy.
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Don't get me started on fracking, I can light the water in my bathroom sink on fire because of fracking...

And I am counting on the prospect of developing new infrastructures to spur investment.

I don't want oil companies to go out of business, as many oil byproducts will still be needed. Like medical grade plastics. WE just don't need to burn the stuff anymore. Haven't for a decade or so. But if Big Oil wants to damage their own chance of survival, so be it.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Note the part where I said it reminds me. AS in the actions of the companies concerning valid science are the same. But hey, you can read it however you want, you can stupidly think I literally said Oil companies market burning oil as healthy. Or you can correctly think I was comparing their promotion of self interest instead of acting in the interests of their customers in the long term.

I can tell you didn't actually read the second link, btw...
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Note the part where you said "Now it seems our Oil Companies are doing the same" and I did read that link. Its 35 year old science. And thus based on incomplete information. Like I said, I assumed your were being hyperbolic comparing climate change to lung cancer. That kind of comparison doesnt really help your case though.

Oil is not marketed as a climate product. Nor is it harmful to the consumers buying it. And since there is no effort to sell a product other than for its intent, it cant very well be fraud. Oil does exactly whats its supposed to do.
 
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