Obamacare takes first real step closer to repeal after Senate vote

zimmer said:

I'll hear it as they grind it out, and will comment then.

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Yes, we'll all hear it as they "grind it out", as they have absolutely no ****ing idea what it is they actually want to do and neither do the American people.

RickJames3000 said:

"Free markets" are a purely theoretical concept that have not, and cannot exist. Libertarian philosophy is a faith-based fairy tale. There is no alternative to "statism" and/or "collectivism" because they are merely shorthand terms for human social organization. It's all drivel.

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Actually, free markets have existed for a time when a new industry was developed. This is why government officials go on and on about new industries sometimes using loopholes in existing regulations when in reality all the industry did was involve itself in the marketplace in such a way that current regulations don't apply to them. The only reason the statist bitches about the use of loopholes in that case is because they need an excuse to regulate the new industry.

Henrin said:

Actually, free markets have existed for a time when a new industry was developed. This is why government officials go on and on about new industries sometimes using loopholes in existing regulations when in reality all the industry did was involve itself in the marketplace in such a way that current regulations don't apply to them. The only reason the statist bitches about the use of loopholes in that case is because they need an excuse to regulate the new industry.

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"New Industries" don't exist in, nor spontaneously generate from, a vacuum. They pop up in response to, and in context with, an already-regulated extant market... and thus the various players involved in said "New Industry" are already either constrained by, or benefit from, existing advantages and disadvantages. The playing field is never level nor is it "free".

It's a pipe dream.

RickJames3000 said:

"New Industries" don't exist in, nor spontaneously generate from, a vacuum. They pop up in response to, and in context with, an already-regulated extant market... and thus the various players involved in said "New Industry" are already either constrained by, or benefit from, existing advantages and disadvantages. The playing field is never level nor is it "free".

It's a pipe dream.

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Why would you assume that all new industries are a response to existing markets? If I have an idea that starts an entirely new industry it may or may not be in response to a market already in place. Regardless of that though, it hardly matter what it is in response to as it does not even get close to answering the question if my new industry is regulated or not. I could fall under plenty of regulations when I start a new industry or none depending on how I go about it. Usually speaking new industry falls under many existing regulations, but not always.

Also, free market thinkers care not for level playing fields.

Henrin said:

Why would you assume that all new industries are a response to existing markets? If I have an idea that starts an entirely new industry it may or may not be in response to a market already in place. Regardless of that though it hardly matter what it is in response to as it does not even get close to answering the question if my new industry is regulated or not. I could fall under plenty of regulations when I start a new industry or none depending on how I go about it. Usually speaking new industry fall under many existing regulations, but not always.

Also, free market thinkers care not for level playing fields.

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If there are contextual advantages and/or disadvantages for specific players within a market... then it is, by definition, not a "free market".

The simple absence of crafted government regulations for a brand new industry does not preclude the fact that government involvement in related industries has affected and continues to affect the market. In fact, it is unavoidable in the reality we share.

zimmer said:

I don't expect them to do a crappy job, and frankly... they can't do a worse job.

I look forward to a free market solution.

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Free market is great for the vast majority of things. But there are a few areas in which laissez faire economics is not sufficient. Among those are education, criminal justice, and health care.

RabidAlpaca said:

So no? You don't have any idea what the plan is and they haven't actually come up with their solution yet? Exactly. If neither you nor the GOP can tell us what the plan is, you don't have one.

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Who cares? Nothing, is better than this boondoggle.

RickJames3000 said:

If there are contextual advantages and/or disadvantages for specific players within a market... then it is, by definition, not a "free market".

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:lol: How do you figure? That seems to be nothing but an idea put out by people to battle things like Uber.

The simple absence of crafted government regulations for a brand new industry does not preclude the fact that government involvement in related industries has affected and continues to affect the market. In fact, it is unavoidable in the reality we share.

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So what? They're not the same industry. It doesn't matter to the point being made.

zimmer said:

ROTFLOL... tightly wound it seems. I understand... ROTFLOL...

Plan?

Free market based.

That much I know.

I'm neither a congressman, senator, nor spokesman for the Republican party... and not a consultant in that field, so it's not my job to tell you what their multiple plans are, could be or will be.

I'll hear it as they grind it out, and will comment then.

I don't have one... yes I do.

Get the government out of healthcare, and have people pay for their own either personally or through insurance. If you don't have coverage, then go to emergency, or clinics that provide care for free.

And... let the entire nation be the market... allow folks to purchase insurance from any state.

Competition drives costs down... that's why 10,000 buck cell phones cost 1% what they did 30-years ago.

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We do need a way to rein in healthcare costs. The era of the fifty dollar Tylenol must come to an end somehow. It's ridiculous that hospitals have multiple different price points for the same procedure.

reinoe said:

That is indeed the most shocking thing about repealing the ACA. They've had 6 years to come up with a replacement and still have nothing.

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That isn't actually true.

BrewerBob said:

I don't dispute that. But one party doing a crappy job should not be an excuse for the other party to do a crappy job. If we are just going to keep using the excuse that the other guys sucked too then things will never improve.

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That's true, but by the same token, it is hypocritical for leftists to whine about the fast tracking of the repeal, when that is exactly how they shoved it down our throats in the first place.

countryboy said:

That's true, but by the same token, it is hypocritical for leftists to whine about the fast tracking of the repeal, when that is exactly how they shoved it down our throats.

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Hypocrisy slides off the alt-left like water off a duck.

Jetboogieman said:

Yeah!

Let's let the free market fix it all!

Or... Conspire to collectively raise rates, deny coverage at will and provide as little care as possible.

Oh glorious freedom!

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What exactly has O'Bamacare done to rein in healthcare costs, let alone improve the quality? :roll:

Henrin said:

:lol: How do you figure? That seems to be nothing but an idea put out by people to battle things like Uber.


So what? They're not the same industry. It doesn't matter to the point being made.

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Point being there's no such thing as a "free market", of course.
Perhaps our main point of disagreement is on the definition of the terms. I don't know.

I will say that I reject political ideology in general, so I don't find "Libertarian-ism" any more silly than "Conservatism", "Socialism" or "Liberalism". I guess they are mostly just placeholders for ever-shifting and non-monolithic bundles of political ideas and values.

I don't feel we're going to come to a mutual understanding here. But I do appreciate that you've conveyed your position in a civil manner.
Thanks.

jimbo said:

Step two is the Democrat's problem. They can score big points with a workable solution, but they won't because they can't.

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No it is the problem of those in charge, yes the Dems should work with the Repubs on resolving the issue, now that Would be a pleasant change, Both Parties working in the best interests of the Nation Together, I could die a happy man if that ever happened.

countryboy said:

What exactly has O'Bamacare done to rein in healthcare costs, let alone improve the quality? :roll:

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Quick answer: Nothing

We shall see what comes next.

Casper said:

Quick answer: Nothing

We shall see what comes next.

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So you would agree that the left's criticism of Trump in this regard is a bit premature?

jmotivator said:

That isn't actually true.

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From my understanding they've floated no less than 10 different and varying plans that range in quality of "exactly like the ACA but with a different name" to "explicitly worse than the ACA" to "a thinly veiled attempt to funnel taxpayer dollars into Insurance company coffers". Kicking around a bunch of ideas is not an actual plan.

countryboy said:

So you would agree that the left's criticism of Trump in this regard is a bit premature?

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Yes I would, said so several times on several threads. Psssst, not all Liberal are nuts over, well, trump winning. Did I likethat trump was elected, Nope, did I want the alternative, Nope. So the conclusion I have come to is this; I did not want him, but I am stuck with him, we really have no idea what he will or will not do (I know him to be one of those that are hard to nail down because sometimes he means what he says and sometimes he is not and the trick is to decide which is which. I am willing to wait and see and find out what he really will do and what he won't, or..........do something no one figured on, as I said he is truly an unknown. When he does something right I will give him credit for it, and when he screws up (they all do) I will call him on it. That is the only Fair thing I can do given my predetermined opinion of him. If he earns Respect he will get it and if he earns Scorn, he will get it. What I will TRY and not do is attack him without all the facts or simply because he is the Donald.
What I Would like to see from him right now is for him to stop the Twitting and getting in petty arguments with actresses and anyone else that critics him and to stop with the campaign trail talk and tone it down a notch.
I am one of those that believes that what happened during the run for office needs to end and that the one that wins needs to now know and understand that they are now the most Powerful Person on the Planet, and as such needs to have a certain amount of decorum and to install a self filter on how they conduct themselves. It is nothing more than trump himself would expect and demand of one of his own employees and guess what, while he may be that most Powerful Person on the Planet, he is also Our Employee.

reinoe said:

From my understanding they've floated no less than 10 different and varying plans that range in quality of "exactly like the ACA but with a different name" to "explicitly worse than the ACA" to "a thinly veiled attempt to funnel taxpayer dollars into Insurance company coffers". Kicking around a bunch of ideas is not an actual plan.

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And where have you been reading this?

I have read that the plan is something close to this bill already in the House.

Luckily it already has a very Trump-like name.

Casper said:

No it is the problem of those in charge, yes the Dems should work with the Repubs on resolving the issue, now that Would be a pleasant change, Both Parties working in the best interests of the Nation Together, I could die a happy man if that ever happened.

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So let the Democrats come up with a plan. Any ideas what that might be?

Then if the Republicans stonewall or worse relegate the plan to Reid's bottom drawer where the rest of the Republican proposals are stored, then the Democrats will have a bitch. 'Till then not so much.

RabidAlpaca said:

Really? What is this unified Republican health care plan and how exactly will it function? You've actually got dozens of different suggestions from different factions within the GOP that all conflict with each other. Many in the GOP don't want to replace it with anything at all, saying if you don't have money you don't get to see a doctor. Even Trump hasn't laid out how he'd like it to work, just that it would be replaced with something "better". So lay it all out for us and please go into detail.



You're right, there's MANY plans, so many that they all seem to have their own. So what will OUR plan be? Can you or anyone else tell us that? What's this grand master plan that will replace Obamacare and how will it function exactly?

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They have to pass it to see whats on it. Isnt that the popular mantra now?

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Renae said:

What would be "excellent" to you? And realistic? We cannot afford to cover everyone, the current "plan" is destroying the system.... you aren't going to get a Single Payer system (thankfully).....

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Get the federal govt out of it alltogether and go back to states rights. California can have socialism, and Texas can have whatever they want. Obamacare isnt really problem, trying to treat everyone like they all want the same thing is.

BrewerBob said:

Free market is great for the vast majority of things. But there are a few areas in which laissez faire economics is not sufficient. Among those are education, criminal justice, and health care.

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That depends on your goals. If you want the same poor quality for everyone, then socialism is the way to go. If you want the most efficient system for utilization of resources, then thats free markets.

RabidAlpaca said:

Yes, we'll all hear it as they "grind it out", as they have absolutely no ****ing idea what it is they actually want to do and neither do the American people.

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I believe you have no idea what you're ranting on about.

I understand you don't like the fact the abortion called ObamaKare is about to be flushed down the ****ter, which is deserving of the Demokrats smelly turd... but to claim Republicans... "they have no ****ing idea"... that is laughable.

I'm loving it... because it's absurd.

****ing laughable.

Ridiculously laughable.

And I enjoy your posts... believe me, as they reveal the irritation of a Leftist who has watched,. is watching and will continue to witness the Demokrat party's failures be revoked and the Demokrat party imploding.

You had your shot... and you laid a turd.

We will clean it up.

You can thank us later.

PS. Are you the dimwitted CA Senator Kamala Harris?