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Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break[W:262]

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Obviously, everyone saw this coming. Sad thing is that Brownback is one of the many trickle-down supporters who is advising Trump. If he wants to do for the rest of the country what was done in Kansas, we're in big trouble.

From the AP by way of the Miami Herald:

Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break

Kansas legislators Monday jump-started a debate over ending an income tax break championed by Republican Gov. Sam Brownback, moving on the first day of their annual session to tackle the state's severe and ongoing budget woes.

The House Taxation Committee decided less than three hours after lawmakers convened to draft a bill repealing a personal income tax exemption that benefits more than 330,000 farmers and business owners. Brownback has championed the break as a pro-growth policy, but it's contributed to the state's budget problems.

Kansas faces a projected $342 million shortfall in its current budget and gaps in funding for existing programs that total nearly $1.1 billion through June 2019. Lawmakers don't think they can raise new revenues quickly enough to bolster the current budget but also want a longer-term fiscal fix.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Obviously, everyone saw this coming. Sad thing is that Brownback is one of the many trickle-down supporters who is advising Trump. If he wants to do for the rest of the country what was done in Kansas, we're in big trouble.

From the AP by way of the Miami Herald:

Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break


Do you have a source that demonstrates that Brownback is advising Trump? I see nothing in the story and the only thing I could find anywhere was that "he is believed to be considering a job with the Trump Administration" (via Kansas City Star) possibly Agricultural Secretary.

Would certainly do less harm there than the last time a Kansas governor joined the Cabinet.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Obviously, everyone saw this coming. Sad thing is that Brownback is one of the many trickle-down supporters who is advising Trump. If he wants to do for the rest of the country what was done in Kansas, we're in big trouble.

From the AP by way of the Miami Herald:

Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break


With the level of information at hand, it is hard to say,what went wrong. But there is a plethora of empirical studies and research that show pretty clearly that tax reduction helps the economy much better than expanded spending. This is especially true, when accompanied by corrective measures taken on the other side of the balance sheet.

This would be untrue, if government spending were only on public goods and below public goods production optimum. In the US neither is the case.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

With the level of information at hand, it is hard to say,what went wrong.

Not really. Back when they were first passed, Brownback said that the tax cuts would be "a shot of adrenaline" into the Kansas economy. I'm no doctor, but even I know that adrenaline kicks in right away and doesn't take 7 years to start working. Fact is what went wrong was the premise of cutting taxes to stimulate growth in the first place.

Now that we know it doesn't work based on the failure of Kansas, we should avoid the policy like the plague.


But there is a plethora of empirical studies and research that show pretty clearly that tax reduction helps the economy much better than expanded spending.

No, there aren't any empirical studies or research that shows that. If it did work, then Kansas wouldn't be suffering as it is...nor would the Bush economy have been as terrible as it was. Remember, the first four years of the Bush Tax Cuts lost 811,000 private sector jobs, produced the worst growth since the Great Depression (after a decade of some of the best growth), and erased a surplus causing record-breaking deficits.

The problem Conservatives have is that their policies work in theory, but never in practice.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

i think he means can you prove a link to CNN,MSNBC, FOX, NY TIMES, WASHINGTON POST...ETC.

Yeesh...here's Politico.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Yeesh...here's Politico.

Donald Trump on Tuesday unveiled a list of agricultural advisers brimming with Republican heavy hitters, including Govs. Sam Brownback and Terry Branstad and several top farm-state lawmakers in a move that seemed aimed at quelling criticisms he is relying on a mostly third-string team.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Not really. Back when they were first passed, Brownback said that the tax cuts would be "a shot of adrenaline" into the Kansas economy. I'm no doctor, but even I know that adrenaline kicks in right away and doesn't take 7 years to start working. Fact is what went wrong was the premise of cutting taxes to stimulate growth in the first place.

Now that we know it doesn't work based on the failure of Kansas, we should avoid the policy like the plague.




No, there aren't any empirical studies or research that shows that. If it did work, then Kansas wouldn't be suffering as it is...nor would the Bush economy have been as terrible as it was. Remember, the first four years of the Bush Tax Cuts lost 811,000 private sector jobs, produced the worst growth since the Great Depression (after a decade of some of the best growth), and erased a surplus causing record-breaking deficits.

The problem Conservatives have is that their policies work in theory, but never in practice.
It didn't work for Bush2 or Reagan-omics either.
Market Crashed 7 years in (1987, 2007/8) when accumulated debt overcame short term stimulus.
Oh well, here we go again.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

With the level of information at hand, it is hard to say,what went wrong. But there is a plethora of empirical studies and research that show pretty clearly that tax reduction helps the economy much better than expanded spending. This is especially true, when accompanied by corrective measures taken on the other side of the balance sheet.This would be untrue, if government spending were only on public goods and below public goods production optimum. In the US neither is the case.


Kansas is a real world experiment in the idiocy of supply-side tax policies. They torpedoed their revenue with just such a policy. Once again, the things supply-siders said would happen failed to happen.

What is the motivation to deny reality?

It's as if the sky turned blood red, we all see that it is blood red, but you pipe up to say that "studies" say it should be blue so we should act like it is blue, despite it actually being blood red. What sense would that make?





Is there some unstated hope that if conservatives get this to happen federally and in enough states, governments will be broke enough that they'll have to enact the kind of massive termination/agency slashing that makes up the wet dreams of Paul Ryan's ilk? (ie, in the same way that Obamacare was supposedly a sly maneuver to break health care and force a move to single-payer?

It has to be something like that, because there is absolutely no rational basis to blame Kansas's debacle on something other than the tax cuts. Whether or not the cuts "helped the economy", they didn't help it anywhere near to the point where it would have to be helped for the old supply-side lie to prove true.

That lie, again, being that we can just keep slashing taxes and each time it'll produce so much growth that government revenue will remain neutral or even rise despite the lower rates.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Not really. Back when they were first passed, Brownback said that the tax cuts would be "a shot of adrenaline" into the Kansas economy. I'm no doctor, but even I know that adrenaline kicks in right away and doesn't take 7 years to start working. Fact is what went wrong was the premise of cutting taxes to stimulate growth in the first place.

Now that we know it doesn't work based on the failure of Kansas, we should avoid the policy like the plague.




No, there aren't any empirical studies or research that shows that. If it did work, then Kansas wouldn't be suffering as it is...nor would the Bush economy have been as terrible as it was. Remember, the first four years of the Bush Tax Cuts lost 811,000 private sector jobs, produced the worst growth since the Great Depression (after a decade of some of the best growth), and erased a surplus causing record-breaking deficits.

The problem Conservatives have is that their policies work in theory, but never in practice.

1. You see, that is what I meant. Reducing taxes is not a homogeneous affair. There are taxes with different impacts. It would be necessary to know more.

2. You should check that out. Even a short Google search will bring light to the subject. But I recall seeing a World Bank or IMF meta study recently, if you want to take a shortcut and search their libraries.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

1. You see, that is what I meant. Reducing taxes is not a homogeneous affair. There are taxes with different impacts. It would be necessary to know more.

We are speaking specifically about the income tax breaks Brownback passed in Kansas as a blueprint for the rest of the nation.


2. You should check that out. Even a short Google search will bring light to the subject. But I recall seeing a World Bank or IMF meta study recently, if you want to take a shortcut and search their libraries.

I'm not doing your work for you.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Kansas is a real world experiment in the idiocy of supply-side tax policies. They torpedoed their revenue with just such a policy. Once again, the things supply-siders said would happen failed to happen.

What is the motivation to deny reality?

It's as if the sky turned blood red, we all see that it is blood red, but you pipe up to say that "studies" say it should be blue so we should act like it is blue, despite it actually being blood red. What sense would that make?





Is there some unstated hope that if conservatives get this to happen federally and in enough states, governments will be broke enough that they'll have to enact the kind of massive termination/agency slashing that makes up the wet dreams of Paul Ryan's ilk? (ie, in the same way that Obamacare was supposedly a sly maneuver to break health care and force a move to single-payer?

It has to be something like that, because there is absolutely no rational basis to blame Kansas's debacle on something other than the tax cuts. Whether or not the cuts "helped the economy", they didn't help it anywhere near to the point where it would have to be helped for the old supply-side lie to prove true.

That lie, again, being that we can just keep slashing taxes and each time it'll produce so much growth that government revenue will remain neutral or even rise despite the lower rates.

Reducing taxes and spending increases efficiency, if the correct taxes are cut and the government reduces spending on non public goods and such expenditures, where the tax and spending multipliers are net negative.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Obviously, everyone saw this coming. Sad thing is that Brownback is one of the many trickle-down supporters who is advising Trump. If he wants to do for the rest of the country what was done in Kansas, we're in big trouble.

From the AP by way of the Miami Herald:

Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break


The only thing wrong with the Kansas tax cuts was that they weren't backed by spending cuts.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Kansas is a real world experiment in the idiocy of supply-side tax policies. They torpedoed their revenue with just such a policy. Once again, the things supply-siders said would happen failed to happen.

What is the motivation to deny reality?

It's as if the sky turned blood red, we all see that it is blood red, but you pipe up to say that "studies" say it should be blue so we should act like it is blue, despite it actually being blood red. What sense would that make?





Is there some unstated hope that if conservatives get this to happen federally and in enough states, governments will be broke enough that they'll have to enact the kind of massive termination/agency slashing that makes up the wet dreams of Paul Ryan's ilk? (ie, in the same way that Obamacare was supposedly a sly maneuver to break health care and force a move to single-payer?

It has to be something like that, because there is absolutely no rational basis to blame Kansas's debacle on something other than the tax cuts. Whether or not the cuts "helped the economy", they didn't help it anywhere near to the point where it would have to be helped for the old supply-side lie to prove true.

That lie, again, being that we can just keep slashing taxes and each time it'll produce so much growth that government revenue will remain neutral or even rise despite the lower rates.


Reducing taxes and spending increases efficiency, if the correct taxes are cut and the government reduces spending on non public goods and such expenditures, where the tax and spending multipliers are net negative.



Kansas destroyed its revenue stream.

You can quote theory all you like, but this and prior federal attempts at supply side tax policy have simply failed to do what that theory said it would do.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Kansas is a real world experiment in the idiocy of supply-side tax policies. They torpedoed their revenue with just such a policy. Once again, the things supply-siders said would happen failed to happen.

What is the motivation to deny reality?

It's as if the sky turned blood red, we all see that it is blood red, but you pipe up to say that "studies" say it should be blue so we should act like it is blue, despite it actually being blood red. What sense would that make?





Is there some unstated hope that if conservatives get this to happen federally and in enough states, governments will be broke enough that they'll have to enact the kind of massive termination/agency slashing that makes up the wet dreams of Paul Ryan's ilk? (ie, in the same way that Obamacare was supposedly a sly maneuver to break health care and force a move to single-payer?

It has to be something like that, because there is absolutely no rational basis to blame Kansas's debacle on something other than the tax cuts. Whether or not the cuts "helped the economy", they didn't help it anywhere near to the point where it would have to be helped for the old supply-side lie to prove true.

That lie, again, being that we can just keep slashing taxes and each time it'll produce so much growth that government revenue will remain neutral or even rise despite the lower rates.

The right realized that they cannot really adopt an explicit "let people starve to death" policy, but they needed to retain the goal of stealing from the poor to give to the rich, so they approached it from a budgetary standpoint by using tax cuts and their resulting deficits to force spending cuts.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

The only thing wrong with the Kansas tax cuts was that they weren't backed by spending cuts.

That's just not true, otherwise they would have made those cuts. Don't you wonder why all these republicans force the government to take a pay cut without being prepared to deal with the consequences? It's because they LIE to get the tax cut passed. Hold them accountable for their LIE, please.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

The only thing wrong with the Kansas tax cuts was that they weren't backed by spending cuts.

So it takes spending cuts in order for tax cuts to work? Brownback said the tax cuts would be "a shot of adrenaline". What adrenaline takes more than 5 years to kick in?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

The right realized that they cannot really adopt an explicit "let people starve to death" policy, but they needed to retain the goal of stealing from the poor to give to the rich, so they approached it from a budgetary standpoint by using tax cuts and their resulting deficits to force spending cuts.

Exactly...and those spending cuts are almost always operational, which causes the programs to fail, which then gives Conservatives an excuse to sell them off to private interests for profit.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Obviously, everyone saw this coming. Sad thing is that Brownback is one of the many trickle-down supporters who is advising Trump. If he wants to do for the rest of the country what was done in Kansas, we're in big trouble.

From the AP by way of the Miami Herald:

Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break


Thats a shortfall in projections. According to the actual numbers revenue is up.

2014 5.6bn
2015 5.9bn
2016 6.3bn

Kansas Division of the Budget

Taxes are higher now than before the tax cuts in 2012, when revenue was 6.1bn
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

We are speaking specifically about the income tax breaks Brownback passed in Kansas as a blueprint for the rest of the nation.

I'm not doing your work for you.

1. A blueprint for two different economies will probably not work, as their structures are quite different. That is why homogenization of taxes in federations or groups of nations is such a bad idea.
2. No problem. I did enough fiscal and tax policy at the university and have kept up developments. Admittedly my specialties in economics and the research I did was other than this topic, but I don't really need assistance with the literature. So thank you very much indeed, but only should you have some rather astounding research that turns over the present state of the arts, you needn't worry about literature for me.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Thats a shortfall in projections. According to the actual numbers revenue is up.

Where's 2012 and 2013? And no, it's not a shortfall in projections, but rather actual revenue.


Taxes are higher now than before the tax cuts in 2012, when revenue was 6.1bn

Not income taxes. Excise taxes, yes, but those have more of an impact on the poor and middle class than the 1%. And secondly, you say revenue was $6.1B in 2012, then you say that revenue was below 2012 levels for 2013, 2014, and 2015. It took 4 years for revenue to reach what it was prior to the tax cuts. And where's all the growth? KS lagged the nation in GDP growth over that same period.
 
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Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

That's just not true, otherwise they would have made those cuts. Don't you wonder why all these republicans force the government to take a pay cut without being prepared to deal with the consequences? It's because they LIE to get the tax cut passed. Hold them accountable for their LIE, please.

So it takes spending cuts in order for tax cuts to work? Brownback said the tax cuts would be "a shot of adrenaline". What adrenaline takes more than 5 years to kick in?

I never said that tax cuts alone aren't a good thing. What I was trying to say was that they done best when coupled with spending cuts. By themselves, tax cuts help, add in spending cuts and they help a lot more. Then throw in systems which reduce the need for spending and you have the best situation. Tax increase just increase spending, spending just enables more spending (by building dependency).
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

1. A blueprint for two different economies will probably not work, as their structures are quite different. That is why homogenization of taxes in federations or groups of nations is such a bad idea.

It's not a blueprint for economies, it's a blueprint for taxation. And the blueprint shows serious structural flaws in the taxation in Kansas. BTW - Mitch McConnell said when the KS tax cuts were passed that he wanted to do the same thing federally.

Your second point seems like a cop-out, cut-and-run to me. You wouldn't believe me if I said I was Tom Brady, so why should I believe you when you make claims about yourself?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

What I was trying to say was that they done best when coupled with spending cuts.

The whole premise behind tax cuts is that it leads to growth. That premise has never once been proven. Spending cuts have no impact on the effect tax cuts have on the economy. Conservatives know this, but continue pushing tax cuts because their motives are to starve the government of revenue in order to manufacture a deficit which is then used as an excuse to cut spending.


By themselves, tax cuts help, add in spending cuts and they help a lot more.

How's that? The two things are mutually exclusive when it comes to the economy. Tax cuts aren't more effective if there are spending cuts. They have nothing to do with one another.


Then throw in systems which reduce the need for spending and you have the best situation.

I don't know what this means.


Tax increase just increase spending, spending just enables more spending (by building dependency).

Spending is how the economy grows. At the end of the day, the cashier at Best Buy doesn't care from where you got the money to buy that new flat screen TV.
 
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