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Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break[W:262]

Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Well, Frank wrote in the book that Sebelius won because she stayed away from cultural issues.
Well, you may very well be right about the most current data. A lot of my comments were directed at Frank's book, and wondering whether the current situation was in fact different or simply more partisan anger. Odd that Frank's premise was that Kansans shot themselves in the foot, hurt their own self interests, by voting on cultural issues yet somehow they elected her. And I would be encouraged, as opposed to discouraged, by the recent attempts to alter course before things get worse. Many states are heading over the bank without seeming to understand the situation.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Reducing taxes and spending increases efficiency, if the correct taxes are cut and the government reduces spending on non public goods and such expenditures, where the tax and spending multipliers are net negative.

Got it. If you reduce income and spending by the same amounts it will have a net zero effect on the economy. You still have no growth so all you have done is put more money in the pockets of those who already have most of it and taken it from education, infrastructure, fire and police, etc. I know that still sounds like a big win to some.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Obviously, everyone saw this coming. Sad thing is that Brownback is one of the many trickle-down supporters who is advising Trump. If he wants to do for the rest of the country what was done in Kansas, we're in big trouble.

From the AP by way of the Miami Herald:

Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break


First, Supply side has been working great here in Texas, and if " trickle down " doesn't work how is " stimulus " supposed to grow the economy ??
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

My 2017 World Almanac listed the total revenues of Kansas at $19,012,887,000. Total debt was $6,742696,000. Those were for 2014 but the most current I have.
They are from after the tax cut. And probably low as there is c. 2% growth rate.

Not sure where the world almanac gets that number. I've linked already to several Kansas sources that put total Kansas tax revenues from all sources at roughly $6 billion, such as two links in post #74, the first of them to the Census. Or here

That 19 billion might include federal dollars for Medicaid etc. but even so the 2017 estimate at the link shows "SGF" of 6.2 billion and "All Funds" roughly $15.7B.

Doesn't really matter much - bottom line is Kansas can't fund ongoing state obligations with recurring tax revenue and has had to resort to all kinds of one-time methods to keep the state afloat, including liquidating ALL of its $700M reserve account, as well as a bunch of transfers from things like road funds to the general fund. They're eating all their seed corn, as the old saying goes.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

In t he real world, if you try something and it doesn't work, you try something else.
In the political world, that doesn't happen as Republicans and Democrats never give up their sacred cows.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

First, Supply side has been working great here in Texas,

Has it? 2016 wasn't a great year for Texas, mostly due to the price per barrel. In fact, Texas lost 26,000 manufacturing jobs alone year-over-year 2015-16. That doesn't include the 80,000+ oil jobs Texas lost as of April 2016.


if " trickle down " doesn't work how is " stimulus " supposed to grow the economy ??

Because it doesn't rely on consumption by the top 1%. We were promised, time and again, that trickle-down would create so much economic activity that there wouldn't be a need for spending cuts because we'd be awash in revenue. Now, the argument has changed for the trickle-down folks from saying tax cuts create economic growth, to tax cuts and spending cuts creates economic growth. But the second premise is just as ludicrous as the first, and the fact that the tactics on how to propagandize them have changed shows how ineffectual they actually are.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Doesn't really matter much - bottom line is Kansas can't fund ongoing state obligations with recurring tax revenue and has had to resort to all kinds of one-time methods to keep the state afloat, including liquidating ALL of its $700M reserve account, as well as a bunch of transfers from things like road funds to the general fund. They're eating all their seed corn, as the old saying goes.

They also sold off a state-funded Biotech program as well.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

First, Supply side has been working great here in Texas, and if " trickle down " doesn't work how is " stimulus " supposed to grow the economy ??

In fact, supply-side has not worked out so well for Texas...even the Wall Street Journal now says it's a drag on the economy. With jobs leaving cities like Houston for my current hometown of Atlanta.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

First, Supply side has been working great here in Texas, and if " trickle down " doesn't work how is " stimulus " supposed to grow the economy ??

And of course, here's the Houston Chronicle saying Texas' economy "slowed to a crawl" last year:

We learn a lot of things from the biannual revenue estimate released by the Texas Comptroller on the eve of every legislative session, including how much money the state has and where it comes from. This year, the picture isn't pretty: The state has 2.7 percent less to spend than it did over the last two-year budgeting cycle.

For Texanomics' purposes, however, the most interesting bit is what it says about the regional economy — and in 2016, the economy seems to have barely grown at all.

The Texas economy -- as measured by gross state product , or the total output of goods and services -- grew by only 0.2 percent in fiscal year 2016, which runs from September 1 to August 30.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Oh. I read international economic studies all the time. Have been regularly for years. If you are interested I remember a meta study by the World Bank or IMF, I can't recall which off hand, that you might want ti source. If you do a search you will see, what plethora means.

This was your claim:

With the level of information at hand, it is hard to say,what went wrong. But there is a plethora of empirical studies and research that show pretty clearly that tax reduction helps the economy much better than expanded spending.

It is up to you to properly source the claim, not other members who questioned the validity of the statement because you failed to do so.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Got it. If you reduce income and spending by the same amounts it will have a net zero effect on the economy. You still have no growth so all you have done is put more money in the pockets of those who already have most of it and taken it from education, infrastructure, fire and police, etc. I know that still sounds like a big win to some.

Well, no. The reductions have multiple effects and depending on how and which cuts are made the effects will differ. But even disregarding that, the businesses that government was running can be privatized and other competitors can enter the fray. The changes are complex.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

This was your claim:

It is up to you to properly source the claim, not other members who questioned the validity of the statement because you failed to do so.

Why? I have read enough of the papers. If you aren't enough interested to do the walk, it isn't my loss.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Has it? 2016 wasn't a great year for Texas, mostly due to the price per barrel. In fact, Texas lost 26,000 manufacturing jobs alone year-over-year 2015-16. That doesn't include the 80,000+ oil jobs Texas lost as of April 2016.




Because it doesn't rely on consumption by the top 1%. We were promised, time and again, that trickle-down would create so much economic activity that there wouldn't be a need for spending cuts because we'd be awash in revenue. Now, the argument has changed for the trickle-down folks from saying tax cuts create economic growth, to tax cuts and spending cuts creates economic growth. But the second premise is just as ludicrous as the first, and the fact that the tactics on how to propagandize them have changed shows how ineffectual they actually are.

Texas's economy is doing just fine. We have a highly diversified economy and Oil and Gas only represents 10 percent of our States GDP.

Toyota didn't relocate their HQ from Torrance California to Texas because of our Oil and Gas sector. Nope.

They relocated because Texas is run by adults who understand that low taxes and reasonable regulatory policies lead to jobs growth and a budget surplus.

And a lot of new Texans.

California is run by Progresives, children who pander to the lowest common denominator by pushing Social justice narratives via tax policy

All other economic sectors in Texas have grown consistently over the last 8 years.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Why? I have read enough of the papers. If you aren't enough interested to do the walk, it isn't my loss.

That's an odd way of refusing to cite your data, abandoning your own claim, and surrendering the argument.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Texas's economy is doing just fine.

Last fiscal year (Sept 2015 - Aug 2016), Texas' economy grew by just 0.2%. That's not "doing fine". That's pretty much stagnation. The national growth over the same period was about 2%. So Texas is a drag on the US economy.


We have a highly diversified economy and Oil and Gas only represents 10 percent of our States GDP.

Which is higher than every state other than Oklahoma and North Dakota, both of whom are seeing the same poor economy Texas is. Furthermore, while oil and gas make up only 10% of Texas' GDP, the industries that support them are affected by job loss in that sector. Texas was reliant on the oil and gas boom in the early 2010's, but as the price for both have fallen, so has Texas' economic outlook.


They relocated because Texas is run by adults who understand that low taxes and reasonable regulatory policies lead to jobs growth and a budget surplus.

Not lately. The bubble has burst and the Texas economy is showing signs of weakness because it went all-in on energy. Once the well runs dry, or ceases being valuable, the jobs disappear and all the retail and commercial businesses that benefited from the oil jobs go away too. Texas' economy is not diversified, as we see in the 0.2% growth for the FY 2016.


California is run by Progresives, children who pander to the lowest common denominator by pushing Social justice narratives via tax policy

And yet, since 2012, CA has beat Texas when it comes to jobs and growth. Since 2012, more jobs have been created in CA than anywhere else in the country.


All other economic sectors in Texas have grown consistently over the last 8 years.

Not last year. 0.2% growth. The bubble has popped. The emperor has no clothes!
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Why? I have read enough of the papers. If you aren't enough interested to do the walk, it isn't my loss.

Some of us have also "done the walk" and one point of having debates like this is to learn something.

I haven't read any meta studies or a plethora of individual ones that make the claim you said is supported by the studies. Just for example, is a tax increase to fund new roads and improve schools in a community always a drag on the local economy versus an equivalent tax cut? I'm nearly (99.9% or so) sure the answer to that is no. It would be equally wrong to assert that each tax cut in the U.S. at the federal level will generate more economic return than the spending that must be cut to fund it, all the way to a tax rate of zero. Given that I'm nearly sure any study looking at spending versus tax cuts is HIGHLY specific about the conditions under which various options are preferred, and that you've misstated or oversimplified the conclusions, but we can't know that or even have an informed discussion without looking at your sources, which you won't provide.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Last fiscal year (Sept 2015 - Aug 2016), Texas' economy grew by just 0.2%. That's not "doing fine". That's pretty much stagnation. The national growth over the same period was about 2%. So Texas is a drag on the US economy.




Which is higher than every state other than Oklahoma and North Dakota, both of whom are seeing the same poor economy Texas is. Furthermore, while oil and gas make up only 10% of Texas' GDP, the industries that support them are affected by job loss in that sector. Texas was reliant on the oil and gas boom in the early 2010's, but as the price for both have fallen, so has Texas' economic outlook.




Not lately. The bubble has burst and the Texas economy is showing signs of weakness because it went all-in on energy. Once the well runs dry, or ceases being valuable, the jobs disappear and all the retail and commercial businesses that benefited from the oil jobs go away too. Texas' economy is not diversified, as we see in the 0.2% growth for the FY 2016.




And yet, since 2012, CA has beat Texas when it comes to jobs and growth. Since 2012, more jobs have been created in CA than anywhere else in the country.




Not last year. 0.2% growth. The bubble has popped. The emperor has no clothes!

Texas ranks 1st for our economic climate
Forbes Welcome

California Highest Poverty rate in the Nation...
Forbes Welcome
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Texas ranks 1st for our economic climate

Gee, that's swell that Forbes seems to think so. But I'd say 0.2% growth for FY 2016 is not indicative of a good economic climate. How do you account for that poor growth if Texas is this wonderful, business-friendly place???
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Texas ranks 1st for our economic climate
Forbes Welcome

According to your link, CA is 4th. And looking deeper into your chart, CA ranks higher than Texas in Growth Prospects, and is pretty much even with Texas on Quality of Life.

As for poverty, yes, there is a lot of poverty in CA. Just like there's a lot of poverty everywhere. This is a consequence of supply-side economic theory that has become the conventional wisdom despite no measure of success.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

It didn't work for Bush2 or Reagan-omics either.
Market Crashed 7 years in (1987, 2007/8) when accumulated debt overcame short term stimulus.
Oh well, here we go again.

Never in my life have I seen so many people indoctrinated in the ideology that the federal govt. needs all the money they request and that tax cuts allowing people to keep more of what they earn is the problem. I see Kansas has a shortfall but where, what is the breakdown and how does people keeping more of what they earn impact that shortfall?

The left has certainly indoctrinated a lot of people who now ignore basic principles of economics and civics to give the bureaucrats the benefit of doubt when it comes to spending.

One can only hope that real change takes place with Trump and it actually started with questioning costs for Air Force One and the New fighter jet from Lockheed showing that it isn't going to be business as usual. Rather than take more money from the taxpayers why not hold the govt. responsible for the waste, fraud, and abuse of their spending?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

According to your link, CA is 4th. And looking deeper into your chart, CA ranks higher than Texas in Growth Prospects, and is pretty much even with Texas on Quality of Life.

As for poverty, yes, there is a lot of poverty in CA. Just like there's a lot of poverty everywhere. This is a consequence of supply-side economic theory that has become the conventional wisdom despite no measure of success.

LOL, would you please tell me how people keeping more of what they earn creates poverty? Consequences of supply side? LOL, you think the govt is better at preventing poverty? How did the War on Poverty work out for us?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

LOL, would you please tell me how people keeping more of what they earn creates poverty?

I don't need to tell you how, you can just look at the poverty stats in 2016 vs. 1980 and see for yourself. Poverty has increased since the start of trickle-down despite all promises that it wouldn't.


LOL, you think the govt is better at preventing poverty? How did the War on Poverty work out for us?

Until Reagan took steps to undermine it, it worked very well. Particularly Medicare and Social Security. But both programs need to be expanded. Medicare needs to be the single payer, and Social Security benefits should be increased.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Obviously, everyone saw this coming. Sad thing is that Brownback is one of the many trickle-down supporters who is advising Trump. If he wants to do for the rest of the country what was done in Kansas, we're in big trouble.

From the AP by way of the Miami Herald:

Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break

a smaller version of what is going on with the federal government....way too many taxbreaks for the wealthy, corporations....
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal


You made the claim

I have read enough of the papers.

Another claim that is both irrelevant and unverifiable.

If you aren't enough interested to do the walk, it isn't my loss.

Look. You made the claim that tax cuts are better stimulus than expenditure increases. Now you want to cower from this claim by asking me to do your work for you? If you've truly read enough of the papers,you wouldn't be so hostile to presenting evidence to support your position. Failure to do so renders your statement as false. Anyone can claim anything on the internet... it doesn't make you an expert or strengthen your position.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

a smaller version of what is going on with the federal government....way too many taxbreaks for the wealthy, corporations....

Preach!
 
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