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Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break[W:262]

Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Vomiting facts seems to be a problem for you as you offer nothing but distorted out of context information from biased, partisan sources that you want to believe.

The Bush Working Group on Financial Markets is a biased, partisan source? The Federal Reserve is a biased, partisan source? What am I taking out of context? Happy to address. What it seems like is you are just trying to plagiarize what I write to try to turn it back on me because you project your insecurities outward. I don't really care about that or your feelings.


I did indeed post BLS data showing Bush created 9 million jobs from January 2001 to December 2007

Ummm, Bush was President until January 2009. And his net private sector job loss for 8 years was about 400,000. What you did was lump in seasonal farm jobs and government jobs to help pad Bush's total. Wait - aren't you the people who say the government doesn't create jobs? Hmmm...funny how you argue they do when it suits you. So great, Bush created about 1.4 million government jobs in 8 years. He lost about 400,000 private-sector jobs in that same span. You know this, of course, but choose to mislead people into thinking that Bush's "job growth" was in the private sector when it wasn't. Net-net, he lost private sector jobs after 8 years. That's an example of how one would cherry pick data and lie by omission. A lie by omission is still a lie.


You simply have no concept of BLS data or even where the data comes from.

OK, Mr. "government-doesn't-create-jobs-unless-I'm-trying-to-make-Conservatism-appear-less-bad". Sure wish the Conservative from 2017 could travel back in time and kick the Conservative from 2009 in the groin for being such a fool by saying government doesn't create jobs, amirite????????????
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Looks like there is no need to pursue this any further so it is back on Ignore for you

What better way to prove you're an ignoramus than by putting someone on ignore!? LOL! What a baby!
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

The Bush Working Group on Financial Markets is a biased, partisan source? The Federal Reserve is a biased, partisan source? What am I taking out of context? Happy to address. What it seems like is you are just trying to plagiarize what I write to try to turn it back on me because you project your insecurities outward. I don't really care about that or your feelings.




Ummm, Bush was President until January 2009. And his net private sector job loss for 8 years was about 400,000. What you did was lump in seasonal farm jobs and government jobs to help pad Bush's total. Wait - aren't you the people who say the government doesn't create jobs? Hmmm...funny how you argue they do when it suits you. So great, Bush created about 1.4 million government jobs in 8 years. He lost about 400,000 private-sector jobs in that same span. You know this, of course, but choose to mislead people into thinking that Bush's "job growth" was in the private sector when it wasn't. Net-net, he lost private sector jobs after 8 years. That's an example of how one would cherry pick data and lie by omission. A lie by omission is still a lie.




OK, Mr. "government-doesn't-create-jobs-unless-I'm-trying-to-make-Conservatism-appear-less-bad". Sure wish the Conservative from 2017 could travel back in time and kick the Conservative from 2009 in the groin for being such a fool by saying government doesn't create jobs, amirite????????????

I gave you the employment numbers and you want to give Obama credit for private sector job growth without offering the legislation that created it. I quite frankly prefer employed people paying taxes but apparently you ignore which you always do anything that flies in the face of your partisan bull****

Govt doesn't create jobs, it creates the atmosphere for the private sector to do that. Obama created the atmosphere which created 6 million part time employees for economic reasons and grew employment 6 million over 9 years from when the recession started

As for the Presidential working group, again out of context information that doesn't even come close to explaining what caused the Bubble in the first place. Thread after thread here in this forum have dissected that and most come to the same conclusion, partisan hacks like you will never get it. You give Bush too much credit and power and Obama so little. The bubble started in the 90's and there are a lot of players who created it, your partisan bs is just a long like of crap coming from true losers
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

I gave you the employment numbers

You gave me numbers that included government jobs -jobs you had previously said don't count or aren't "real" jobs. You did that so dishonestly, hoping I wouldn't catch on to the ruse you were trying to play. Unfortunately for you, I am well-informed enough to know BS when I see it, and you shoveled quite the load of BS when you posted those BLS figures, didn't you? I just want you to admit that Bush created government jobs, and that's what kept his employment from being perceived as negative because of all the private-sector job loss that occurred after his 8 years.

That's all.


Govt doesn't create jobs

LOL! Well, then why are you including government jobs in your jobs numbers? I posted the non-farm, private-sector job numbers for you. You chose to ignore them because they showed a net loss after 8 years of Bush. You talk out of both sides of your mouth and your arguments are circular. That's what happens when you become a zealot.


Obama created the atmosphere which created 6 million part time employees for economic reasons and grew employment 6 million over 9 years from when the recession started

Of course, that's not true at all. What really funny is that it was Bush, not Obama. According to BLS:

Series Id: LNS12600000
Seasonally Adjusted
Series title: (Seas) Employed, Usually Work Part Time
Labor force status: Employed part time (persons who usually work less than 35 hours)
Type of data: Number in thousands
Age: 16 years and over

In January 2001 there were 23,423,000 part time workers
In January 2009 there were 26,377,000 part time workers

So that is an increase of about 3,000,000 part time workers during Bush.

In January 2009 there were 26,377,000 part time workers
In December 2016 there were 27,895,000 part time workers

So that is an increase of about 1,500,000 part time workers during Obama.

So where are you getting this 6,000,000 number? Bush is the part-time President, not Obama. It doesn't seem like you have any idea what you're talking about, or how to read numbers.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

As for the Presidential working group, again out of context information that doesn't even come close to explaining what caused the Bubble in the first place.

How is it out of context? Explain.


You give Bush too much credit and power and Obama so little.

Obama had nothing to do with the subprime market exploding in growth starting in 2004. He wasn't even in the Senate then.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Yes, I will put my resume and experience as well as ability to do DD up against yours any day. You are nothing more than a partisan leftwing liberal ou of touch with reality. Vomiting facts seems to be a problem for you as you offer nothing but distorted out of context information from biased, partisan sources that you want to believe. I did indeed post BLS data showing Bush created 9 million jobs from January 2001 to December 2007 but unlike you who buys rhetoric you ignored the data. You simply have no concept of BLS data or even where the data comes from. Your level of dishonesty and partisanship has reached record levels. Looks like there is no need to pursue this any further so it is back on Ignore for you

Got to love that line in a post that selectively cuts off the Bush era in the middle of his second term, at the very PEAK of the economy, and then ignore the Great Recession that followed.

You can't be intellectually honest and give Bush credit for the gains in the bubble economy, then pretend that the inevitable collapse of the bubble didn't happen. That's partisan hackery at its finest.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Got to love that line in a post that selectively cuts off the Bush era in the middle of his second term, at the very PEAK of the economy, and then ignore the Great Recession that followed.

You can't be intellectually honest and give Bush credit for the gains in the bubble economy, then pretend that the inevitable collapse of the bubble didn't happen. That's partisan hackery at its finest.

Unlike you who picks up the Obama record well after his first year in office and after the Stimulus? The true picture are the numbers from pre recession vs. today and unfortunately for you the public spoke and got it, you probably never will.

You can't or won't give Bush credit for anything just like you won't give Obama blame for anything. The bubble did collapse and it was the loans that were made that actually burst the bubble HOWEVER the bubble was there and was going to burst, the question was when? It is rather sad that where were are 9 years after the recession began and we have 9.2% U-6 vs 8.4% when the recession began but that number is ignored. Why aren't you holding Obama accountable for NOT getting us back to Pre recession levels when we have 11 million more Americans and 10 trillion more in debt?

Among your other challenges why don't you post the definition of partisan hackery and see if your picture isn't listed there
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

So great, Bush created about 1.4 million government jobs in 8 years. He lost about 400,000 private-sector jobs in that same span. You know this, of course, but choose to mislead people into thinking that Bush's "job growth" was in the private sector when it wasn't. Net-net, he lost private sector jobs after 8 years. That's an example of how one would cherry pick data and lie by omission. A lie by omission is still a lie.

I omitted the rest just to highlight the government jobs data. I forget to mention that too often but it's a BIG reason why jobs in the post recession era look so stagnant.

CES9000000001_774727_1484947563592.gif

I'm not sure what data you're using versus mine but I got Bush + 1.744M and Obama latest -526, for a swing of 2,270,000 jobs in the public sector. Most of them at decent wages with benefits, too.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Unlike you who picks up the Obama record well after his first year in office and after the Stimulus? The true picture are the numbers from pre recession vs. today and unfortunately for you the public spoke and got it, you probably never will.

But your definition of "pre-recession" is the top of the biggest bubble most of us will ever see, the biggest debt bubble since the Great Depression. That wasn't sustainable, those jobs were built on a mountain of debt that collapsed under its own weight, on housing prices that were unsustainable.

You can't or won't give Bush credit for anything just like you won't give Obama blame for anything. The bubble did collapse and it was the loans that were made that actually burst the bubble HOWEVER the bubble was there and was going to burst, the question was when? It is rather sad that where were are 9 years after the recession began and we have 9.2% U-6 vs 8.4% when the recession began but that number is ignored. Why aren't you holding Obama accountable for NOT getting us back to Pre recession levels when we have 11 million more Americans and 10 trillion more in debt?

Among your other challenges why don't you post the definition of partisan hackery and see if your picture isn't listed there

I know better than to get in an argument with you on this stuff. Been there done that. I just had to call out that particularly egregious cherry picking that you've done many times before.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

I omitted the rest just to highlight the government jobs data. I forget to mention that too often but it's a BIG reason why jobs in the post recession era look so stagnant.

View attachment 67212670

I'm not sure what data you're using versus mine but I got Bush + 1.744M and Obama latest -526, for a swing of 2,270,000 jobs in the public sector. Most of them at decent wages with benefits, too.

I have no idea where your chart comes from but here is the list of Govt. jobs by year from 1962 and that doesn't coincide with your chart at all

https://www.opm.gov/POLICY-DATA-OVE...ABLES/TOTAL-GOVERNMENT-EMPLOYMENT-SINCE-1962/
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

But your definition of "pre-recession" is the top of the biggest bubble most of us will ever see, the biggest debt bubble since the Great Depression. That wasn't sustainable, those jobs were built on a mountain of debt that collapsed under its own weight, on housing prices that were unsustainable.



I know better than to get in an argument with you on this stuff. Been there done that. I just had to call out that particularly egregious cherry picking that you've done many times before.

Low expectations are what we expect from the left but not someone who claims to be a business person. Why would you take the numbers at the bottom vs getting back to the numbers when the recession began. I cherry picked nothing, Obama was hired to get us back to pre recession levels and failed.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Right, my graph shows government employment at the state, local and federal level, and your is just federal, so they'd be quite different.

Federal employment is what the President controls, he has no control whatsoever of state employment, the economy does that and when states suffer they cannot run a deficit thus have to cut employment. When the economy is good they hire
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Low expectations are what we expect from the left but not someone who claims to be a business person. Why would you take the numbers at the bottom vs getting back to the numbers when the recession began. I cherry picked nothing, Obama was hired to get us back to pre recession levels and failed.

Yeah, stopping the Bush era at the peak of the biggest bubble in 80 years is cherry picking. But we can agree to disagree on this. No point arguing it further.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Federal employment is what the President controls, he has no control whatsoever of state employment, the economy does that and when states suffer they cannot run a deficit thus have to cut employment. When the economy is good they hire

The president controls federal employment and state private employment, apparently, but not state government employment. Interesting.....
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

The president controls federal employment and state private employment, apparently, but not state government employment. Interesting.....
What the hell are you talking about? The President doesn't have a thing to do with state govt. employment
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Yes, I know it's been a few days. ;)

Most of those changes in sales tax revenues are due to inflation, improvement in employment (which are national) and improvements in wages (again, national). Some are linked to increases in sales tax, from 6.15% in 2013 to 6.5% in 2015.

Those increases are also nowhere near enough to offset the revenue losses. E.g. despite $190m in higher sales taxes for 2016, the state still had a $375 million shortfall.

The tax cuts did not spark tons of growth, or businesses moving into Kansas. Unemployment did not fall faster than neighboring states. Growth did not increase more than neighboring states. Some private measures (e.g. moving businesses) indicate that people are leaving Kansas fairly rapidly.

The tax cuts created a loophole where LLCs pay almost no corporate taxes, which led to 300,000 existing Kansan businesses to change their structure to LLCs.

While I don't have all the figures in front of me, it appears that Kansas has lost well over $1 billion in tax revenues during their tax experiment. There should really be no question that its attempt to increase tax revenues by cutting tax rates does not work.

The sales tax was 6.3% in 2013, then was cut, then raised again, so imo it's not much of a factor: Kansas Statewide Sales Tax Rate Change, July 2013 - TaxRates.com

And there are lots of new businesses, businesses grew in 2014 by the second largest amount in a decade: http://cjonline.com/news/business/2...as-increased-second-highestamount-decade-2014
And 2015: Report: Kansas Sees Five Percent Growth In Businesses | KMUW

I'm not that concerned with what border states are doing, I feel like the more important and reasonable metric is how Kansas is doing compared to their own history.

It seems to me like it would make sense that tax revenue would struggle at first after major cuts, so I'm not sure about theory behind the "shot of adrenaline" comment as new businesses will need time to take root and grow. But I feel like they are growing now and I feel like the sales tax is starting to make up for the missing income tax. But if you disagree, how bad do you see things getting and how fast if no changes are made?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

The sales tax was 6.3% in 2013, then was cut, then raised again, so imo it's not much of a factor: Kansas Statewide Sales Tax Rate Change, July 2013 - TaxRates.com

According to this report, state sales tax collections increased from 2,565,742,606 for the year ended June 2015 to 2,720,420,193 FYE 6/2016, or +6.0%. The sales tax rate increased from 6.15 to 6.50, or 5.7%. So the rate increase explains 95% of the change.

And there are lots of new businesses, businesses grew in 2014 by the second largest amount in a decade: | The Topeka Capital-Journal
And 2015: Report: Kansas Sees Five Percent Growth In Businesses | KMUW

The problem is they made pass through entities exempt from all tax, but corps are still taxed (as are individuals who earn wages). A bunch of the new companies will be new LLCs that were formed to take advantage of the tax break. Maybe they are growing businesses, but for the two years ending Dec. 2016, jobs in Kansas essentially didn't move - net zero.

I'm not that concerned with what border states are doing, I feel like the more important and reasonable metric is how Kansas is doing compared to their own history.

It seems to me like it would make sense that tax revenue would struggle at first after major cuts, so I'm not sure about theory behind the "shot of adrenaline" comment as new businesses will need time to take root and grow. But I feel like they are growing now and I feel like the sales tax is starting to make up for the missing income tax. But if you disagree, how bad do you see things getting and how fast if no changes are made?

They're going to have to fill the hole - last I read, $350 million for this FY and $500 million for the next.

Bottom line is Kansas is teaching us what we already knew which is tax cuts do stimulate the economy, but they're a minor player in ordinary circumstances, and tax cuts have to be offset by spending cuts - maybe 90% of the nominal tax cut. Oh, and Art Laffer is a laughingstock - can't forget that one!
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

According to this report, state sales tax collections increased from 2,565,742,606 for the year ended June 2015 to 2,720,420,193 FYE 6/2016, or +6.0%. The sales tax rate increased from 6.15 to 6.50, or 5.7%. So the rate increase explains 95% of the change.



The problem is they made pass through entities exempt from all tax, but corps are still taxed (as are individuals who earn wages). A bunch of the new companies will be new LLCs that were formed to take advantage of the tax break. Maybe they are growing businesses, but for the two years ending Dec. 2016, jobs in Kansas essentially didn't move - net zero.



They're going to have to fill the hole - last I read, $350 million for this FY and $500 million for the next.

Bottom line is Kansas is teaching us what we already knew which is tax cuts do stimulate the economy, but they're a minor player in ordinary circumstances, and tax cuts have to be offset by spending cuts - maybe 90% of the nominal tax cut. Oh, and Art Laffer is a laughingstock - can't forget that one!

The first point you're attempting to make isn't totally clear to me although I'm pretty sure you're placing the vast majority of Kansas sales tax income growth on a sales tax hike. Bottom line, Kansas is bringing in much more sales taxes with a net rise in the sales tax during Brownback's tenure of .2%. Sorry, I have a hard time attributing all of that new revenue to a net .2% hike unless you can prove that the sales tax revenue went down commensurate to that when the tax was cut from 6.3% to 6.15%.

To your second point, unemployment has spiked and is now back on the downturn. It's gone from 6% to 4.2% during Brownback's tax cuts. That's a success that hasn't met Brownback's ultimate hopes, but nevertheless a success, is it not? And what's relevant about businesses changing their structure to take advantage of tax cuts? They're still new businesses, right?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

To your second point, unemployment has spiked and is now back on the downturn. It's gone from 6% to 4.2% during Brownback's tax cuts. That's a success that hasn't met Brownback's ultimate hopes, but nevertheless a success, is it not? And what's relevant about businesses changing their structure to take advantage of tax cuts? They're still new businesses, right?

Yeah, but wages are 49th in the nation. So great, you have a job in Kansas...but not-so-great, it's a sh*t job that doesn't pay very well and offers little room for wage growth.
 
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