• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Report: NJ high school suspends student over anti-gun control class project

Groogrux said:
Sure, IF the drive belongs to the school and not him personally.
Click to expand...

If it belongs to him, it shouldn't have been left at the school for 6+ months. He should have taken it home with him as soon as the project was complete. Why did he even take it out of his bag after the project was over?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Vox said:
The evidence is that the police investigated and found the kid to have done nothing wrong.

You're the only one blundering in the dark.
Click to expand...

Nothing criminally wrong, which has zero to do with whether or not he broke an actual school rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Vox said:
No, they don't.
Click to expand...

What the hell? Do you know any school policies/rules at all? That's one of the main things that will get you suspended from school. Heck my children are just in elementary school and they could get suspended for talking back to a certain level to their teacher or any other school staff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Around here, students get sent home for dress code violation all the time. Repeat offenders can get suspended. If the police investigate, they'd find that the student did nothing wrong, legally.

This example demonstrates that vox doesn't know what he's talking about.
 
trouble13 said:
So assuming this is true how did they end up concluding that being careless with a thumb drive requires a suspension and psychological evaluation? Seems a bit extreme, no?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Unless when they confronted him about it, he started back talking them.

Another possibility is there could have been some sort of malware on the thumb drive. While much more unlikely, still possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
trouble13 said:
If there is the school should explain what it is

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Schools are not legally allowed to release information about why a student got suspended without court orders, and usually it is only going to be to the court. That is part of student privacy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
trouble13 said:
I agree that the article is lacking in details but i would not be so quick to dismiss what the parent and student are saying as a publicity stunt.

A few years back when my son was in highschool i had a confrontation with his school over a pic of him holding a gun on his facebook page. They threaten to suspend him if he did not remove it.

When i found out my initial response was what isnt my son telling me and i thought speaking to the adults would put this into reasonable context. Boy did i find out i was wrong and they tried to bully both him and me. They ultimately ga5iled because i pushed back but it was an awfull ordeal. They not only harassed him but his freinds were systematically being integtogated over this.

This was over a picture no threatening statements or anything. He just thought holding a gun made him look cool so he posted it as his profile pic. It wasnt even school related.

The only thing im saying its been my personal experience of dealing with massive over reactions by schools when its gun related.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

That is different though. While I don't agree with school rules that punish students for pictures or "likenesses" of guns and especially don't agree with schools having any right to punish students for something on their social media that isn't specifically related to either a student, school staff, or the school itself (and even that should be limited to threats or cheating), that doesn't mean that schools can't punish students for having those images legally, in school. Again, I don't think they should and such a punishment should be challenged (not sued for money over). But this sounds different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
roguenuke said:
If it belongs to him, it shouldn't have been left at the school for 6+ months. He should have taken it home with him as soon as the project was complete. Why did he even take it out of his bag after the project was over?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Maybe he had other work saved on it. On my thumb drive I have work presentations from five years along with presentations that I'm currently working on. Depending on the size of the drive they can hold a lot. A 16GB drive can hold roughly 320,000 pages of Word documents. This kids story doesn't add up, but it's not the finding of the drive with a year old presentation that makes me doubt him.
 
Groogrux said:
Maybe he had other work saved on it. On my thumb drive I have work presentations from five years along with presentations that I'm currently working on. Depending on the size of the drive they can hold a lot. A 16GB drive can hold roughly 320,000 pages of Word documents. This kids story doesn't add up, but it's not the finding of the drive with a year old presentation that makes me doubt him.
Click to expand...

That's just a small part of it. There has been no info about this and the story made it seem as if this was a drive from the school, not his personal drive. Also if it was for other school work, then it means there could have been something else on it that is the reason he is getting into trouble, not the presentation he is claiming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Irrelevant to whether it violated school policy. I understand that right wingers like you can't understand complex issues like this, but this situation is not black and white.
Click to expand...

I understand that left wingers like you can't understand how this proves that the school policy is an irrational, gun-hating Fascist policy that singled out a young man for punishment because he rejected said Fascism.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
You're the one who has no clue and doesn't understand the issue. School policy is SEPARATE from a possible criminal act.
Click to expand...

Nobody said it wasn't separate, but it is obviously related. Yes, I do have a clue or two in my repertoire.
 
roguenuke said:
What the hell? Do you know any school policies/rules at all? That's one of the main things that will get you suspended from school. Heck my children are just in elementary school and they could get suspended for talking back to a certain level to their teacher or any other school staff.
Click to expand...

I think you have a chain gang in mind rather than a school.
 
trouble13 said:
If there is the school should explain what it is

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I don't think the school CAN explain what it is. I think they are not allowed to give out details, other than to say that the kid and the mom are misrepresenting what has happened.

District superintendent Anne Facendo said Harvey and his mother are lying but she said she can’t say more because of federal and state student privacy laws.
Click to expand...
 
roguenuke said:
That is different though. While I don't agree with school rules that punish students for pictures or "likenesses" of guns and especially don't agree with schools having any right to punish students for something on their social media that isn't specifically related to either a student, school staff, or the school itself (and even that should be limited to threats or cheating), that doesn't mean that schools can't punish students for having those images legally, in school. Again, I don't think they should and such a punishment should be challenged (not sued for money over). But this sounds different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
All situations are unique and im not jumping to any conclusions about this one. What i am saying is that nobody should give either side the benefit of doubt. Kids and teachers are both guily of being liars.

Referring back to my sons run in at his school, when i asked them how something on his favebook page becomes a school issue i was given 5 different answers by 5 different administrators that ranged from hysterical parents were calling the office all day out of concern for their children's welfare down to a lone student who made an anymous complaint. They also hid behind privacy clauses and i still dont know the real reason that they were looking at his profile.

They had esculated things so far fast i had to take all of this seriously. They were being very aggressive with my son and his little group of freinds. Pulling them oit of classes and searching lockers and cars over this picture. They had the school cop involved. They were in full blown gustopo mode with these kids.

I used what was going on as a teachable moment with my son. I sat him down and told him the school is out of line and he needed an adult to fight this one for him and that was my job. I gave him a choice if he wanted me to fight for him or if he just wanted comply with the school and keep his mouth shut. He was a senior so he just needed to get through the year to graduate and i really could not be certain if this fight was going to affect his grades. He asked me to defend him and each action i included him.

The only reason i got the school to back off was by reading school policy and using it against them. When an accusation is made according to policy they have to name who the accusser is to me, the parent. After being given so many answers about how they stumbked on this pic and taking the heated exchanges i had with these people i knew the one thing they would not want to do was release that information to me.

Everything i did was done formally in writing because i wanted everything they claimed to be documented because i was uncertain if i was going to need to take them to court. They told me they could not tell me who made the complaint because they were concerned about retailiation. I cited their own policy and demanded the name because i wanted to know who was lying to me. They never gave me the name but they did back off of my kid and they did not harass him again. He finished his year and graduated without any incidents. Byw my son did not take down his pic all year. I gave him that choice too. Out of that whole ordeal i found 1 person involved to be reasonable and genuinely kind hearted. She was 1 of the vice principles and we had a heart to heart. I asked her to imagine if this was her kid how she would feel about the way they were treating mine. I think that hit home bevause the next day she called my son into her and behind closed doors offered him a very nice appology for what was happening.

The reason im telling you all this stuff is because your guilty of making assumptions that the school is behaving in good faith with this family in the news. Maybe they are but its not something should assume.just like we should not assume this kid isnt a punk who should be suspended. We dont know. My experience may be very different than theirs but i know in mine the school was trying to heavy handedly run rough shot over my kids basic civil rights. It did have a very facist vibe to it.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Some schools are tougher than others.

 
Groogrux said:
Maybe he had other work saved on it. On my thumb drive I have work presentations from five years along with presentations that I'm currently working on. Depending on the size of the drive they can hold a lot. A 16GB drive can hold roughly 320,000 pages of Word documents. This kids story doesn't add up, but it's not the finding of the drive with a year old presentation that makes me doubt him.
Click to expand...
What does make you doubt him?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Just to make sure everybody got this.......

Ordering a child to undergo a psychological evaluation is an act that can destroy a reputation and mark that child for life.

Personally, I find it impossible to believe that this was justified and I think this student should sue the school.

This is probably a "You like guns, so you must be crazy," action.......a statement.

But it's likely we'll learn more as the days go by.
 
trouble13 said:
All situations are unique and im not jumping to any conclusions about this one. What i am saying is that nobody should give either side the benefit of doubt. Kids and teachers are both guily of being liars.

Referring back to my sons run in at his school, when i asked them how something on his favebook page becomes a school issue i was given 5 different answers by 5 different administrators that ranged from hysterical parents were calling the office all day out of concern for their children's welfare down to a lone student who made an anymous complaint. They also hid behind privacy clauses and i still dont know the real reason that they were looking at his profile.

They had esculated things so far fast i had to take all of this seriously. They were being very aggressive with my son and his little group of freinds. Pulling them oit of classes and searching lockers and cars over this picture. They had the school cop involved. They were in full blown gustopo mode with these kids.

I used what was going on as a teachable moment with my son. I sat him down and told him the school is out of line and he needed an adult to fight this one for him and that was my job. I gave him a choice if he wanted me to fight for him or if he just wanted comply with the school and keep his mouth shut. He was a senior so he just needed to get through the year to graduate and i really could not be certain if this fight was going to affect his grades. He asked me to defend him and each action i included him.

The only reason i got the school to back off was by reading school policy and using it against them. When an accusation is made according to policy they have to name who the accusser is to me, the parent. After being given so many answers about how they stumbked on this pic and taking the heated exchanges i had with these people i knew the one thing they would not want to do was release that information to me.

Everything i did was done formally in writing because i wanted everything they claimed to be documented because i was uncertain if i was going to need to take them to court. They told me they could not tell me who made the complaint because they were concerned about retailiation. I cited their own policy and demanded the name because i wanted to know who was lying to me. They never gave me the name but they did back off of my kid and they did not harass him again. He finished his year and graduated without any incidents. Byw my son did not take down his pic all year. I gave him that choice too. Out of that whole ordeal i found 1 person involved to be reasonable and genuinely kind hearted. She was 1 of the vice principles and we had a heart to heart. I asked her to imagine if this was her kid how she would feel about the way they were treating mine. I think that hit home bevause the next day she called my son into her and behind closed doors offered him a very nice appology for what was happening.

The reason im telling you all this stuff is because your guilty of making assumptions that the school is behaving in good faith with this family in the news. Maybe they are but its not something should assume.just like we should not assume this kid isnt a punk who should be suspended. We dont know. My experience may be very different than theirs but i know in mine the school was trying to heavy handedly run rough shot over my kids basic civil rights. It did have a very facist vibe to it.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I'm countering the accusations that the school is fascist or should pay for this kids suspension when we only have only side of the story (and because of privacy laws, we can only know one side legally unless it goes to court). There are several inconsistencies with the kids explanation, as well as the fact that they would remove him from school based on a single suspension and talk of suing rather than challenging. The presentation by the family is what is suspicious enough for me to believe there is more to the story and the student was likely suspended for something other than his position on gun rights as he and his mother are claiming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
roguenuke said:
I'm countering the accusations that the school is fascist or should pay for this kids suspension when we only have only side of the story (and because of privacy laws, we can only know one side legally unless it goes to court). There are several inconsistencies with the kids explanation, as well as the fact that they would remove him from school based on a single suspension and talk of suing rather than challenging. The presentation by the family is what is suspicious enough for me to believe there is more to the story and the student was likely suspended for something other than his position on gun rights as he and his mother are claiming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I agree that before forming an opinion either way we need more information. The story by both sides are suspicious.

The school position in response to the accusation is that they are liars but we can not tell you what they are lying about because if a confidentality process. That might be true that the schools hands are tied from defending itself but i do know from personal experience their is a very authorian enviroment in these schools.

This really is something that needs to addressed. My feeling on this matter is that because schools are public domains there is no expectation to privacy. Everything should be rearded as much as possible both video and audio so that when a dispute occurs there is tape that can be reviewed. Maybe im jaded but i do not trust school employees anymore than i trust the students to follow the rules in place.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Ikari said:
I don't think the school CAN explain what it is. I think they are not allowed to give out details, other than to say that the kid and the mom are misrepresenting what has happened.
Click to expand...
This is a problem because trust us they are lying does not exactly cut it. Im not condemning the schools actions without more information.

So just thinking on the fly here but i wonder if legally the parents can sign a release form for the details to be made public? They took their matter to public opinion by involving the media i think its entirely appropiate to request that of them if its an available option.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
trouble13 said:
I agree that before forming an opinion either way we need more information. The story by both sides are suspicious.

The school position in response to the accusation is that they are liars but we can not tell you what they are lying about because if a confidentality process. That might be true that the schools hands are tied from defending itself but i do know from personal experience their is a very authorian enviroment in these schools.

This really is something that needs to addressed. My feeling on this matter is that because schools are public domains there is no expectation to privacy. Everything should be rearded as much as possible both video and audio so that when a dispute occurs there is tape that can be reviewed. Maybe im jaded but i do not trust school employees anymore than i trust the students to follow the rules in place.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Students have a right to privacy, regardless of what you might think. The school staff/district cannot publicly release information about a students discipline against them without some sort of court action/order. That is pretty established as law, federal and state law. It comes up often in these sort of cases.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Piecing together a few versions of this story from searching it online makes things a little more clear.

The school suspended the kid and ordered an evaluation because of content they found on his thumb drive. The kid claims a report he did that was on the thumb drive is the content of his suspension. The teacher who supposedly assigned this project claims no recollection of this project.

IMO.
There was probably some other more graffic content on this drive, possibly research for the project. Things like AR rapid shooting clips, stories of workplace or school shootings etc.
The teacher fearing for her job is pulling a Hillary and lying or fake forgetting her way out of it. She is claiming she can't remember the assignment or project.
The school is wanting a psychological evaluation because they fear a crazy with a gun shooting the place up. Finding a thumb drive with pro gun material or clips of "how to.... A gun"could be a red flag, especially when the teacher claims there is no project so in turn no reason for that material to be at school. The school wants to CYA and with the increased media coverage of shootings who could blaime them. They would look neglectful for not acting if a tragedy happened.
The Mom isn't rolling over and probably has a consultant coaching her on how to spin this in the news to look more like a victim.

So we got a lying teacher, a school trying to CYA, and a family spinning it in their favor.
 
Chillfolks said:
Piecing together a few versions of this story from searching it online makes things a little more clear.

The school suspended the kid and ordered an evaluation because of content they found on his thumb drive. The kid claims a report he did that was on the thumb drive is the content of his suspension. The teacher who supposedly assigned this project claims no recollection of this project.

IMO.
There was probably some other more graffic content on this drive, possibly research for the project. Things like AR rapid shooting clips, stories of workplace or school shootings etc.
The teacher fearing for her job is pulling a Hillary and lying or fake forgetting her way out of it. She is claiming she can't remember the assignment or project.
The school is wanting a psychological evaluation because they fear a crazy with a gun shooting the place up. Finding a thumb drive with pro gun material or clips of "how to.... A gun"could be a red flag, especially when the teacher claims there is no project so in turn no reason for that material to be at school. The school wants to CYA and with the increased media coverage of shootings who could blaime them. They would look neglectful for not acting if a tragedy happened.
The Mom isn't rolling over and probably has a consultant coaching her on how to spin this in the news to look more like a victim.

So we got a lying teacher, a school trying to CYA, and a family spinning it in their favor.
Click to expand...

No surprise. Cya is a terrible problem in schools. A family member of mine had a problem with it. Her son reported abuse to his teacher. The school told the teacher not to report it and not get involved. Thus the teacher couldn't testify in the hearing against the father for abuse, and the sons testimony didn't hold much water in the case. It was sickening.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
blackjack50 said:
No surprise. Cya is a terrible problem in schools. A family member of mine had a problem with it. Her son reported abuse to his teacher. The school told the teacher not to report it and not get involved. Thus the teacher couldn't testify in the hearing against the father for abuse, and the sons testimony didn't hold much water in the case. It was sickening.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


I don't really blaim the school. If the teacher says She never assigned or has never seen this project than a thumb drive with pro gun material would raise at least a yellow flag in today's environment. Plus if this kid keeps going on and on about a project that supposedly wasn't assigned one would think his elevator may not be operational.


For me it all falls back on the teacher. If she really never assigned this than the kid probably does need help. If the teacher is lying then I hope she looses her job, undergoes psychological treatment, and faces maximum legal repercussions from this.
 
roguenuke said:
Students have a right to privacy, regardless of what you might think. The school staff/district cannot publicly release information about a students discipline against them without some sort of court action/order. That is pretty established as law, federal and state law. It comes up often in these sort of cases.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I dont think anything, i just raised the question if the parents had the ability to release the school from their confidentiality obligation to disclose the details of the dispute to the public. If they do and the school is lying it would be a very easy way to expose this.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom