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Tulsa police say man had no gun; video shows he had hands up

Crutcher had his hands up - that's good enough for me. Why a guy who had his hands up would be trying to disobey sounds very hard for me to believe, especially when there wasn't any audio. Police ought to be required to have good audio-video recording of interactions in the future -- because that evidence can be very crucial and vital -- in today's age of camera-phones, there's simply no excuse for it.

audio and video is coming out at we speak.

‘Drop the gun!’: Video shows cops warn Charlotte man before shooting | New York Post

the cops are heard shouting to the man to DROP THE GUN. a gun was found right next to the body. It doesn't take Perry f***king Mason to put this together and come up with the CORRECT answers here. that the police are telling the truth and everything coming from the other side is BS. and that's how it plays out in almost every one of these situations yet people like you continue to play this little game. well this game is over. but don't worry. another one will start shortly.
 
That is a piss poor excuse for shooting someone. What is he was deaf or did not speak English? Point is that in the least she panicked no doubt doe to poor training and incompetence.

No, he was shot because after refusing multiple orders to keep his hands where she could see them, and to get down on the ground, and him refusing to comply, he reached for his pocket once again.....It wasn't poor training, or anything of the kind, what it was is a text book situation where the suspect refused to comply, and paid a heavy price.

It is called training and competence.

You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.

How did she know that he was on drugs or now that hindsight is convenient and hypocritical it is fine for you.

No, she was trained in how to recognize someone on drugs, and she made that assessment when he wouldn't comply....It was in the earlier article...Did you even read it?

When did he reach into his pocket?

According to the officer several times during the altercation, and lastly when he was facing his car right before he was shot...Did you watch the video?
 
Police officers are not authorized to conduct vendettas and execute someone merely for not cooperating. That you suggest they should be permitted to do so puts us at significant odds, and you as an enemy to the most rudimentary levels of liberty, freedom or justice.

When a guy is whacked out on PCP and refuses to drop a loaded weapon when asked by armed policeman I'd say that person represents a clear and present danger to the policeman and the community at large. Doesn't mean he DESERVES to die. It man the man BY HIS OWN ACTIONS is putting his life KNOWINGLY in danger.

Is that so unbelievable to you?! what is it you think is wrong with that statement?
 
No, he was shot because after refusing multiple orders to keep his hands where she could see them, and to get down on the ground, and him refusing to comply, he reached for his pocket once again.....It wasn't poor training, or anything of the kind, what it was is a text book situation where the suspect refused to comply, and paid a heavy price.



You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.



No, she was trained in how to recognize someone on drugs, and she made that assessment when he wouldn't comply....It was in the earlier article...Did you even read it?



According to the officer several times during the altercation, and lastly when he was facing his car right before he was shot...Did you watch the video?

Kinda reminds me of the case down in Miami Beach a few months ago. Unarmed therapist/counselor trying to calm young patient down, both laying on ground, counselor with hands in the air, idiot cop still shoots him.
 
When a guy is whacked out on PCP and refuses to drop a loaded weapon when asked by armed policeman I'd say that person represents a clear and present danger to the policeman and the community at large. Doesn't mean he DESERVES to die. It man the man BY HIS OWN ACTIONS is putting his life KNOWINGLY in danger.

Is that so unbelievable to you?! what is it you think is wrong with that statement?


I agree Joe, but that wasn't the situation here.....Mr. Crutcher was stopped in the middle of the road, with the engine running, and he was moving away from the vehicle. When the officer attempted to talk with him, he moved away, putting his hands in the air, and looking at her with his head down, starring back up at her. As she instructed him to remove his hands from his pockets, he ignored that command, then she told him to get down on his knees, and stop as he walked away from her...As other officers arrived, he reached his car, they were all telling him to move away from the car, and get down. He refused, lowered his hands, and reached for either the window of the car, or his pocket, and was shot.

Point is he never had a weapon, but police couldn't have known that at the time.
 
Kinda reminds me of the case down in Miami Beach a few months ago. Unarmed therapist/counselor trying to calm young patient down, both laying on ground, counselor with hands in the air, idiot cop still shoots him.

Not in the slightest....In the Miami situation, the cop clearly did not asses the situation properly. But, I haven't heard anything more about that case....In this case, the man was deliberately defying orders that had he followed, he would still be alive....In Miami, the man was on the ground and had his hands up when he was shot, in this case the man refused to comply, and lowered his hands after being told otherwise....Completely different.
 
I agree Joe, but that wasn't the situation here.....Mr. Crutcher was stopped in the middle of the road, with the engine running, and he was moving away from the vehicle. When the officer attempted to talk with him, he moved away, putting his hands in the air, and looking at her with his head down, starring back up at her. As she instructed him to remove his hands from his pockets, he ignored that command, then she told him to get down on his knees, and stop as he walked away from her...As other officers arrived, he reached his car, they were all telling him to move away from the car, and get down. He refused, lowered his hands, and reached for either the window of the car, or his pocket, and was shot.

Point is he never had a weapon, but police couldn't have known that at the time.

the chief of police(who is black) said they found a gun right next to the man's body. The entire thing is on video so it couldn't have been planted there by the police. So why are you just ignoring that FACT. How do you explain that away? How does it fit into your argument?

it doesn't. because your argument is wrong.
 
the chief of police(who is black) said they found a gun right next to the man's body. The entire thing is on video so it couldn't have been planted there by the police. So why are you just ignoring that FACT. How do you explain that away since you appear to be an expert on this particular issue?

Wait? Tulsa?....I think you have this confused with the Charlotte NC incident....
 
Wait? Tulsa?....I think you have this confused with the Charlotte NC incident....

you're right. I get these fake drama's mixed up sometimes.
 
Not in the slightest....In the Miami situation, the cop clearly did not asses the situation properly. But, I haven't heard anything more about that case....In this case, the man was deliberately defying orders that had he followed, he would still be alive....In Miami, the man was on the ground and had his hands up when he was shot, in this case the man refused to comply, and lowered his hands after being told otherwise....Completely different.

Apparently a grand jury in Tulsa believes the lady cop also "did not asses the situation properly"?

She shoots the guy in the back.
 
audio and video is coming out at we speak.

‘Drop the gun!’: Video shows cops warn Charlotte man before shooting | New York Post

the cops are heard shouting to the man to DROP THE GUN. a gun was found right next to the body. It doesn't take Perry f***king Mason to put this together and come up with the CORRECT answers here. that the police are telling the truth and everything coming from the other side is BS. and that's how it plays out in almost every one of these situations yet people like you continue to play this little game. well this game is over. but don't worry. another one will start shortly.
Wrong shooting thread, wrong town.
 
No, he was shot because after refusing multiple orders to keep his hands where she could see them
He is walking away with his hands up, no reason to shoot.

he reached for his pocket once again...
WHEN? I asked this already and you seem unable to point out when he is reaching for his pocket. Lack of integrity or simply clueless?

It wasn't poor training
Piss poor training and competence.

what it was is a text book situation where the suspect refused to comply, and paid a heavy price.
I can't imagine what kind of Stalinist textbook you must have read but no police procedure textbook instructs an officer to shoot for noncompliance.

You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.
Actually I do but you clearly do not nor have the integrity to acknowledge facts.

No, she was trained in how to recognize someone on drugs, and she made that assessment when he wouldn't comply....It was in the earlier article...Did you even read it?
Right, and her incompetence gave her the green light for killing a man.

According to the officer several times during the altercation
Naturally and he had a machine gun too.

and lastly when he was facing his car right before he was shot...
What time marker from which camera?

Did you watch the video?
Clearly you did not.
 
When a guy is whacked out on PCP and refuses to drop a loaded weapon when asked by armed policeman I'd say that person represents a clear and present danger to the policeman and the community at large.
Yes.

It man the man BY HIS OWN ACTIONS is putting his life KNOWINGLY in danger.
Do you have any clue what "knowingly" means? Does that include acting while "whacked out on PCP" or just when you say so.
 
Kinda reminds me of the case down in Miami Beach a few months ago. Unarmed therapist/counselor trying to calm young patient down, both laying on ground, counselor with hands in the air, idiot cop still shoots him.
Yea, but based on his training he made an assessment earlier that justified the shooting.
 
...reached for either the window of the car
Except the car window is up.

or his pocket, and was shot.
There is no evidence of that.

Point is he never had a weapon, but police couldn't have known that at the time.
Great, by that brilliant logic they can shoot anyone because they can never know who may have a gun, not to mention a legitimate gun carrying person.
 
Apparently a grand jury in Tulsa believes the lady cop also "did not asses the situation properly"?

She shoots the guy in the back.

Grand Jury's do not determine guilt, or no guilt....Only if there is enough presented by the prosecutor to take to trial.....
 
He is walking away with his hands up, no reason to shoot.

He wasn't shot when he was walking away now was he?

WHEN? I asked this already and you seem unable to point out when he is reaching for his pocket. Lack of integrity or simply clueless?

I wasn't aware that I had to go back and give you a second by second recap at this point, but for the record look at 0:18 and freeze it....what is Mr. Crutcher doing right there?

Piss poor training and competence.

:doh Oh for Christ sake....Tell me what is your expertise? Do you do anything related to Law Enforcement of any kind? Have any friends that are cops? I do....

I can't imagine what kind of Stalinist textbook you must have read but no police procedure textbook instructs an officer to shoot for noncompliance.

Good grief....Get this through you head....He wasn't shot for not complying...He was shot because after many attempts to detain him, he reached for something that the police were not sure what it was.....

Actually I do but you clearly do not nor have the integrity to acknowledge facts.

That's rich....So, post the "facts" backed up by corresponding materiel to let me know you aren't making **** up, and I'll listen.

Right, and her incompetence gave her the green light for killing a man.

Non responsive....You are just baiting here.

Naturally and he had a machine gun too.

And here.

What time marker from which camera?

Look at 0:18 in the OP video, and you tell me what he was doing...

Clearly you did not.

What's the matter with you?

Except the car window is up.

Ok, review the film, he is reaching for something, you tell me....

There is no evidence of that.

yes there is, video evidence...

Great, by that brilliant logic they can shoot anyone because they can never know who may have a gun, not to mention a legitimate gun carrying person.

If the person obey's the commands of the officer involved, then all will be fine....But, by your "brilliant logic" the subject gets to determine what orders he or she will follow, up to, and including getting off a first shot at the cop....:roll:
 
If your integrity is on par with your fact finding, then I would have hard time believing much of what you tell me.

So where is your facts? When you can produce some then you can claim to have integrity yourself.
 
He wasn't shot when he was walking away now was he?
Correct he was not, nor was such thing asserted. However it is clear that by walking away he did not pose ANY threat to anyone.

I wasn't aware that I had to go back and give you a second by second recap at this point
Not for me, we are debating an issue and you are asserting something that I am questioning. I am asking for you to support it.

but for the record look at 0:18 and freeze it....what is Mr. Crutcher doing right there?
Great now we are making steps. He lowered his hand. It is not clear why but it does not appear to reach in his pocket and the helicopter video does not support reaching in his pocket either. Moreover the shot is fired around marker 0:28 so I ask what happened for those 10 seconds? Took him that long to take his hands out as you assert or took her that long to decide or that is when she could no longer control herself and fired?

Oh for Christ sake....Tell me what is your expertise?
It is irrelevant, only the facts on the scene matter, but I have had to make threat assessments in far more hostile environments.

Do you do anything related to Law Enforcement of any kind?
No, nor is it relevant.

Have any friends that are cops? I do....
Yes several, all federal.

Good grief....Get this through you head....He wasn't shot for not complying...
That is what was asserted earlier.

He was shot because after many attempts to detain him, he reached for something that the police were not sure what it was...
Still not a valid reason. Proper training and competence should give the ability for correct assessment and not a reason to shoot for an unknown reason.

That's rich....So, post the "facts" backed up by corresponding materiel to let me know you aren't making **** up, and I'll listen.
The facts are that he is walking away and while that may be not responsive it certainly is not presenting any danger, not even to the level of drawing a weapon.

Look at 0:18 in the OP video, and you tell me what he was doing...
I do not know but I do know that he did nothing to warrant being shot.

What's the matter with you?
I am fine. You?

Ok, review the film, he is reaching for something, you tell me...
I did.

yes there is, video evidence...
Not supporting what you are asserting.

If the person obey's the commands of the officer involved, then all will be fine...
This is not a binary situation. While noncompliance, if that demand is legitimate, is an issue, it is not a reason to shoot and kill.

But, by your "brilliant logic" the subject gets to determine what orders he or she will follow
Yes that is true, we all make choices, sometimes the wrong ones, but not all wrongs ones merit a bullet.

and including getting off a first shot at the cop....
Except that was not even close in this case.
 
Correct he was not, nor was such thing asserted. However it is clear that by walking away he did not pose ANY threat to anyone.

It sure appeared like you were asserting that he was shot for non compliance, and that is not true. And although, committing the act of walking away from an officer with gun drawn on you, while issuing commands to get down, take your hands out of your pockets, and freeze is NOT smart, (ask your Federal LEO friends) he wasn't shot for that....

Not for me, we are debating an issue and you are asserting something that I am questioning. I am asking for you to support it.

That is true, and I believe that I am backing it up not only video evidence, but common sense.

Great now we are making steps. He lowered his hand. It is not clear why but it does not appear to reach in his pocket and the helicopter video does not support reaching in his pocket either. Moreover the shot is fired around marker 0:28 so I ask what happened for those 10 seconds? Took him that long to take his hands out as you assert or took her that long to decide or that is when she could no longer control herself and fired?

Ok, the only thing I could do is speculate, because I wasn't there. But, in discussing this with the LEO friends that I have, the likely scenerio is that the entire way back to his car he was being told to stop, and get down. then while at his car he was likely told to place his hands on the car, to which he then dropped his hands to either his waistband, or his pocket, AGAIN, and after being told previously NOT to do that, at which point it is in the hands of each individual officer to make a decision in deference of protecting their own life, and that of the other officers around them. She decided that the unknown threat was too great, and fired...This is not only protocol, but it is a judgement call of every officer, every day on the street.

It is irrelevant, only the facts on the scene matter, but I have had to make threat assessments in far more hostile environments.

Ok, so you are basically saying that YOU wouldn't have done things the same way she did...Ok....I get that...But YOU weren't there, and I don't think it is completely fair of you to immediately condemn her, and judge her guilty without the investigation being done, nor ALL the facts known.


No, nor is it relevant.

If you are going to make such damning statements as you have in here, then by God you'd better have more than "it's irrelevant."

Yes several, all federal.

Me too, several are Harford County, MD Sheriff's, and a couple are MD State Troopers.

That is what was asserted earlier.

No, at least not by me. But, I will say that something EVERY LEO is trained on, and employs is what is known as the "continuum of force"... So, while not complying is not an instant reason to have deadly force used on you, it is in the continuum of force so it will escalate the situation to that point.
 
Still not a valid reason. Proper training and competence should give the ability for correct assessment and not a reason to shoot for an unknown reason.


It's a judgement call. You keep going on about her training....I'd like you to show us now that her training was "sub par"... And the reason was NOT unknown. The REASON was that after multiple attempts to detain the man, and his multiple refusals to comply with orders, he then reached again into his waist band, or pocket for something unknown, and the police are not going to wait to find out if that unknown is going to kill them....That would be stupid.


The facts are that he is walking away and while that may be not responsive it certainly is not presenting any danger, not even to the level of drawing a weapon.


Her weapon was likely drawn because after reaching into his pockets, while being ordered NOT to do that posed a threat.


I do not know but I do know that he did nothing to warrant being shot.


That's YOUR opinion...Not fact.


Not supporting what you are asserting.


I think it is, but we will have to wait for 12 jurors to make that call won't we?


This is not a binary situation. While noncompliance, if that demand is legitimate, is an issue, it is not a reason to shoot and kill.


And that wasn't the reason he was shot....What don't you understand about that?


Yes that is true, we all make choices, sometimes the wrong ones, but not all wrongs ones merit a bullet.


NO! As a subject being detained, YOU don't get to at that point make decisions about what orders you'll follow, or not, otherwise force will be exerted, in an increasing manner until you comply....Ask your LEO friends.


Except that was not even close in this case.


Ok, now here is the last thing I'll say on this, at least in our back and forth because we seem to be going in circles....I am not law enforcement, although like I said I do have friends that are, and on a local level just like the police involved here...And from what I know, faced with a subject that upon contact seemed off, and refused to talk to me, was acting in a weird manner, and refused orders to keep his hands clear, I don't know if I would have shot or not, but, I certainly would not have allowed the suspect to go until he either harmed me, or my fellow officers, so, faced with that situation, knowing what she did about people on drugs, and such, she made a determination, now she will have to fight her position in court, and my guess is just like the Baltimore six, she will NOT be found guilty of anything.
 
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