• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

ITT Tech shuts down all campuses; thousands of students, employees in limbo

Top Cat

Top Cat

He's the most tip top
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
32,996
Reaction score
14,642
Location
Near Seattle
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
ITT Tech announced Tuesday it is shutting down all its campuses across the United States - including three in Washington state - leaving thousands of students and employees in the lurch at the start of the academic year.

The for-profit college, operated by ITT Educational Services, blames the federal government for taking away federal student aid and forcing the closures.

The college stopped enrolling new students on Aug. 29, just a few days after it was cut off from a significant amount of federal funding by the government. The Department of Education told the company on Aug. 25 that it couldn't enroll new students who use federal financial aid.
Click to expand...

ITT Tech shuts down all campuses; thousands of students, employees in limbo | KOMO
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Chomsky said:
I'd like to hear the other-side of the story?

There's been a recent push by the gov to halt aid to fraudulent & non-performing schools.
Click to expand...

In recent years, ITT Educational Services, Inc. (ITT) has increasingly been the subject of state and federal investigations and this year it has twice been found out of compliance with its accreditor’s standards. Over time, ITT’s decisions have put its students and millions of dollars in taxpayer funded federal student aid at risk. In response, over the last couple of years, we at the Department of Education have increased our financial oversight over ITT and required the school to boost its cash reserves to cover potential damages to taxpayers and students.
Click to expand...

Increased Oversight of ITT and the Impact on Students - ED.gov Blog
 
No matter if we agree or not on the reasoning behind the Department of Education / Obama Administration decision to cut federal funding for students enrolled at ITT because of concerns over quality of education (or quality of the degree,) this is a potential outcome for any business model that is entirely or mostly dependent on government sourced funds. The business model subjects itself to political whim. It is both unavoidable and uncontrollable.

"Due process" is a questionable qualification as well for ITT or their students to complain about. It is one of many potential consequences of subjecting the business model to decisions that are not always based on the standard of due process in a legal or Constitutional context. Again, agree or not with the reasoning there is some latitude to these government organizations to make decisions like this that sent ITT's stock into single digit territory on its way to penny stock status.

The harsh truth here is for whatever number of complaints, enough happened to make this administration question the value of the degree in terms of both government spending and the applicable debt the average student goes into. It is simply not all market based and it cannot be based on how much interaction there is between higher education and government involvement (through loans, through student debt handling and all the legislation involved, etc.) The ship sailed a very long time ago on government involvement most facets of our education system both private and public, this was always a potential consequence of staying in bed with government anyway.

It is terrible for those students actively enrolled and those with a degree from ITT that is now pretty worthless, but it is hardly reasonable to blame government entirely. ITT has some culpability, it just becomes a debate on how much falls on whoever.
 
I would love to know the whole story too. A high level of performance isn't exactly a benchmark that is a priority for the regime.
 
OrphanSlug said:
It is terrible for those students actively enrolled and those with a degree from ITT that is now pretty worthless, but it is hardly reasonable to blame government entirely. ITT has some culpability, it just becomes a debate on how much falls on whoever.
Click to expand...
I would think an enterprising public community college or tech school could, reach out to the affected students,
and come up with a plan to complete their education.
Schools are always looking to increase enrollment, here is a group of students who were actively taking classes.
 
longview said:
I would think an enterprising public community college or tech school could, reach out to the affected students,
and come up with a plan to complete their education.
Schools are always looking to increase enrollment, here is a group of students who were actively taking classes.
Click to expand...

It would be nice, but clearly ITT has no such plan (at least not to this extent.) The way I read these articles is it seems like we have an all of a sudden moment where 1000s are no longer students, and 1000s more are no longer employed.
 
I wonder if the school could have simply stopped new enrollments and phased out its operations without leaving existing students in the lurch.

I wonder if the school simply ceased operations all at once in order to play hardball with the government at the students' expense, hoping to "enroll" the students against the government.

Did the government cancel student loans for the school that it had already granted, or did it simply decide not to issue new loans to new students of the school?

Whatever the school did that was "out of compliance", were they shocked when the government stopped the loans?

And, doesn't the government know that these kinds of trade schools, whether technology, nursing, culinary, or whatever, depend on federally insured student loans to stay in business?

I know that these trade schools can end up flooding the job market and graduates don't find the jobs the school advertised.

Tough situation.
 
OrphanSlug said:
It would be nice, but clearly ITT has no such plan (at least not to this extent.) The way I read these articles is it seems like we have an all of a sudden moment where 1000s are no longer students, and 1000s more are no longer employed.
Click to expand...
I was thinkin g of this as an opportunity for the accredited Schools to reach out and try to bring these students
in, in a way that is good for both the students and the receiving institution.
Perhaps a set of CLEP tests to validate level of learning.
 
longview said:
I was thinkin g of this as an opportunity for the accredited Schools to reach out and try to bring these students
in, in a way that is good for both the students and the receiving institution.
Perhaps a set of CLEP tests to validate level of learning.
Click to expand...

Again, it sounds nice and I would agree would be helpful for those students. However we have a condition here where ITT and the relevant government agencies want to blame each other for this outcome, with what I can tell is very little effort to handle concerns of these students and employees.

I cannot say it in stronger terms, you design a business model that is in some way dependent on government whim you subject yourself to completely unknown conclusions. Just a harsh fact that complicates everyone involved.

ITT is learning a tough lesson that will impact many others along the way.
 
Ontologuy said:
I wonder if the school could have simply stopped new enrollments and phased out its operations without leaving existing students in the lurch.

I wonder if the school simply ceased operations all at once in order to play hardball with the government at the students' expense, hoping to "enroll" the students against the government.

Did the government cancel student loans for the school that it had already granted, or did it simply decide not to issue new loans to new students of the school?

Whatever the school did that was "out of compliance", were they shocked when the government stopped the loans?

And, doesn't the government know that these kinds of trade schools, whether technology, nursing, culinary, or whatever, depend on federally insured student loans to stay in business?

I know that these trade schools can end up flooding the job market and graduates don't find the jobs the school advertised.

Tough situation.
Click to expand...
The way I had heard these private Tech schools operated was a person paid for the "degree" up front about $30 K.
and had several years to take and pass the classes, or give up.
The $30 K was almost entirely student loans.
 
Top Cat said:


ITT Tech shuts down all campuses; thousands of students, employees in limbo | KOMO
Click to expand...

Interesting - it's been slowly building over the years, it seems:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/10/20/education-department-steps-its-scrutiny-itt-tech

ITT said last year it would default on credit agreements with banks if the feds imposed an aid freeze of at least five days on the company. Such a freeze does not appear to have occurred, according to the department’s latest letter.

However, the department said it found several discrepancies during its heightened monitoring of the company. Those issues included a failure by ITT to reconcile its federal aid accounts in a timely manner, a lack of written policy to guide that process and conflicting information about Pell Grant awards over several years.
Click to expand...

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/05/13/sec-charges-itt-fraud-over-student-loan-programs

Federal regulators stepped up their scrutiny of ITT Educational Services on Tuesday, charging the large for-profit chain and its two top executives with fraud for allegedly concealing massive losses in two student loan programs the company backed.

The SEC’s pursuit of the company is different. It revolves around how ITT induced investors to finance the loan programs’ risky lending by backing it with guarantees from the for-profit’s own coffers.

By 2012, according to the SEC’s 56-page complaint, the loans had “performed so abysmally, with extremely high default rates, that ITT’s guarantee obligations began to balloon.”

Rather than disclose those looming liabilities, the SEC said ITT and its top two executives made numerous misstatements and omissions -- in public filings and in calls with investors -- to conceal the condition of the student loan programs.
Click to expand...
 
longview said:
I feel bad for the students who will loose money, but if an institution cannot stand on their own merit,
perhaps they should not be standing.
While it will take longer, most community colleges offer much lower cost alternatives to what ITT was offering,
in addition the credits can apply to further education.
Click to expand...

Community colleges are subsidized by the government at the local, state, and federal level. Private tech school students used to be able to apply for federal loans and grants to help pay their tuition. I've never been a fan of private tech schools, but some do seem to have a good reputation. IMHO, this problem is being created by the government to shut down their competition from the private sector. I may be completely wrong, but that's what I think based what I've seen happening with student funding as well as government/college board certifications being pulled from private tech schools.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Again, it sounds nice and I would agree would be helpful for those students. However we have a condition here where ITT and the relevant government agencies want to blame each other for this outcome, with what I can tell is very little effort to handle concerns of these students and employees.

I cannot say it in stronger terms, you design a business model that is in some way dependent on government whim you subject yourself to completely unknown conclusions. Just a harsh fact that complicates everyone involved.

ITT is learning a tough lesson that will impact many others along the way.
Click to expand...
I am thinking of an action, independent of ether the government or ITT.
The abandoned students will likely be looking for some place to land.
What is that saying "any port in a storm!".
 
Chomsky said:
I'd like to hear the other-side of the story?

There's been a recent push by the gov to halt aid to fraudulent & non-performing schools.
Click to expand...

The problem as far as I know of is that places like it tech are not accredited schools so students credits won't even transfer elsewhere. It tech is more of a vocational school than an academic one.

I feel sorry for the people that got sucked into hat program.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Community colleges are subsidized by the government at the local, state, and federal level. Private tech school students used to be able to apply for federal loans and grants to help pay their tuition. I've never been a fan of private tech schools, but some do seem to have a good reputation. IMHO, this problem is being created by the government to shut down their competition from the private sector. I may be completely wrong, but that's what I think based what I've seen happening with student funding as well as government/college board certifications being pulled from private tech schools.
Click to expand...

It isn't that it tech was private there are many private colleges that do well.
The bigger issue I think is that they are not accredited. They were sort of 400 of their classes did not meet accreditation standards.

Meaning your course work is only good at that school.
So if you received a 2 year electronic degree from it tech and wanted to get your 4 year
You would pretty much have to start over.

Unlike a community college that is accredited.
 
Last edited:
Chomsky said:
I'd like to hear the other-side of the story?

There's been a recent push by the gov to halt aid to fraudulent & non-performing schools.
Click to expand...

That's exactly where my mind went as well.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Community colleges are subsidized by the government at the local, state, and federal level. Private tech school students used to be able to apply for federal loans and grants to help pay their tuition. I've never been a fan of private tech schools, but some do seem to have a good reputation. IMHO, this problem is being created by the government to shut down their competition from the private sector. I may be completely wrong, but that's what I think based what I've seen happening with student funding as well as government/college board certifications being pulled from private tech schools.
Click to expand...
Community colleges are almost strictly locally funded in Texas, They have a rate for out of district students,
like state colleges have an out of state rate.
Most of the private Tech schools were never accredited by one of the higher education accrediting agencies,
notable exceptions being the University of Phoenix, was about to become accredited.
I was on the board of advisors of a public Tech school in the 90's, and they are funded like any other state university,
and accredited.
 
Chomsky said:
I'd like to hear the other-side of the story?

There's been a recent push by the gov to halt aid to fraudulent & non-performing schools.
Click to expand...

If the criteria is the number of students who graduate and can get a job to pay back their school loans, then there are an awful lot of schools, both for profit and not, that should have their student loans cut off. Over 40% of all students who take out school loans can't pay them back. Liberals in the education bureaucracy work closely with liberals in traditional academe, so you're not going to see any of those schools get cut off. Trump is right about this. The school loan system is a pass through racket that benefits academics, who are the same class of people as who populate the government bureaucracy, the same class of people who have made Washington DC the richest zip code in the country. That there were entrepreneurs who muscled in on this with for profit schools was anathema to them.

Go to your local college and see what's going on. A lot of those places have become real fur lined toys.
 
Top Cat said:


ITT Tech shuts down all campuses; thousands of students, employees in limbo | KOMO
Click to expand...

ITT and most schools like it are scams. They throw out certs even if the people training there aren't any good at what they do. As long as they get their money they are happy! Then some of these schools actually have the kids from the previous classes teach the next ones...

Most IT people who went to these types of schools who I have worked with are not as skilled as the people I knew in accredited Colleges or Universities, who were taking programming classes and actually understood their way around systems. Yet, this is part of the employers fault because they act like having a Cert means that it is better than having a degree! This is not the case as I have worked with three IT guys in my young professional career thus far and I can tell you. They guy who trained me actually went to college for this stuff. When he left me in good hands, I learned a lot from him but when the new guys started from these types of schools they didn't know as much as I did or as much as he did. They knew the basics but that was it. Half of them didn't even care about computers. It was just a job for them!
 
A bit of good news,
40,000 Students In Limbo, 8,000 Employees Fired As ITT Suddenly Shuts Down | Zero Hedge
Cited by PIX11, the Department of Education has said that ITT Educational Services’ students could be eligible for a closed school loan discharge, however that process may take years to complete, meanwhile the prospect of earning a college diploma, even if from a novelty school, has evaporated.
Click to expand...
I guess the student loan program has a closed school program, which can discharge the loans,
that means ITT will be on the hook for the money, but they likely have few assets.
 
As far as I can tell - academic progress and sufficiency has little to do with this (after reading numerous articles and their sub-set links to other reports and such).

At no point is academia success a concern, quoted or linked to in any fashion.

It's all about money - whether ITT pushed students to take on high-rate loans (backed by the school's own coffers) which the students couldn't pay back, causing them to default.

This seems to be a danger that all for-profit schools face.

Having almost committed myself to one such school in the past (because of its convenient location) - I can say that they treat education like a business and not like a worthy endeavor. They want you to sign that paper and commit yourself to tens of thousands in debt before you leave their offices that first day. Thankfully I read the fine print and did not sign a financial agreement.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom