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Judge rules four survivors of Colorado theater shooting must pay Cinemark $700K

I would tend to agree with you IF they did not have signs prohibiting weapons on the premises therefor allowing one to be able to defend themselves. As they had signs disallowing one to be armed, there for by extension placing the responsibility of the safety of the patrons in their care. I would say the ruling against the customers was in error.

I wonder what arguments the attorneys for the customers made on their behalf?

Those "no gun" signs simply define a private property policy, much like putting up stop signs in a private parking lot. Anyone should realize that they are not enforced except by (public) LEOs since there is no private security present. If you see a person with a gun in a "gun free zone", or someone running a stop sign, then you must call the police yourself rather than trust that the popcorn (or shoe) seller who likely did not see that "crime" will do so for you. Every bar in Texas is a "gun free zone" but nobody expects that the bar's employees (much less its owner) will guarantee that no person can enter that bar armed.
 
I'm sure some of you will say that they should have taken the "settlement." Maybe. But failing to uphold your security? And then on top of that they had settled and essentially admitted fault to others already. They could deny them settlement without demanding $700k from victims. What a joke.

If you file suit, and especially if it's found to be frivolous, and you lose it is not unreasonable that you are expected to pay the legal fees. The fact that one side of this was a corporation doesn't change that.

That said, I'd like to see how they came up with the 700k. The bill should only be the cost of the percentage of the legal fees that Cinemark paid as it relates to those individuals.

It said more than two dozen, so just for ease of things let's say that 35 people brought suit and the total legal fees was $700k.

Then each of these particular plaintiffs should've been assessed $20k.

That's why I'd like to see how they came up with that number.

Also, while I think it's important that anyone...including a corporation...seek restitution for a failed lawsuit against them in order to discourage others from frivolously bringing forth a suit, I think they'd find more PR value from offering to take a lesser amount (say 5 or 10%) of the results. That would still be significant cash for most individuals, which would act as a deterrent, but wouldn't look nearly as bad from a PR stand point. Two birds, one stone.
 
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Yep they should have to pay to cover their frivolous lawsuit.
Why should cinimark have to suffer financial damage for something not their fault.

Why should they take their security policies seriously?


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Well like Ikari said: this is a loser pays failure. These people are victims and the security measures failed. And they are essentially being used as an example. It pisses me off because these places only place security measures so they can't be held liable in an incident. But when it is shown to be inadequate? They are not held responsible. And something about that just bugs the hell out of me.

Take this for instance: my local theatre has a "no guns policy." And how do they enforce said policy? They check women's bags at the door. That's it. And when I say "they" I mean a college kid who shines a light in the bag. Maybe. And maybe off duty state cops will be outside (inside when the theatre is closing). And let's not forget that their "no guns" sign does not hold weight of law. Therefor if some concealed carrier doesn't see it...all they can do is ask him or her to leave IF they catch that person (assuming licensed carrier). And how would they do that if they aren't going through metal detectors and getting pat downs?

Essentially? It irks me because either the business should be held liable or it shouldn't. We have occupied this weird quasi liable status. And it reduces the effectiveness of any security measure that could be taken. Personally? I wouldn't hold the theatre liable. As long as they don't put up signs that don't hold weight of law. But if they are going to put up signs...then they should have a duty to enforce them.


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The judge, in this case, made that clear - the business is not responsible for crimes committed by customers on its property.
 
What, exactly, can any business do to prevent an armed criminal from shooting patrons? The idea that any business open to the public must have security measures in place sufficient to prevent an armed criminal from shooting random customers is absurd.

Yeah, that is totally absurd. What are they supposed to do, hand out bulletproof vests to people?
 
1) The verdict regarding the theater providing adequate security was correct. This type of event was not reasonably foreseeable.

2) I'm not real hip on the four being required to pay, though. I'm not convinced that's ethically right, either. Given that they chose to reject the settlement, and lost, they should nor be precluded from any future settlements, but I don't think they should be required to pay the corporation's legal fees. While I feel the lawsuit had no merit, I don't think it was "frivolous", either. "Loser pays" should only be done for blatantly frivolous lawsuits.

This was a blatantly frivolous lawsuit. Unless these four people are expecting TSA style security in every public space in the world then they're getting what they deserve. The fact that they rejected a settlement is icing on the cake. Hopefully these for money hungry pigs can get nice upperclass jobs to pay for Cinemark's legal fees.
 
They are only expected to provide a reasonable amount of security.
I.e. Lights in a parking lot. They are not required to keep you safe in every aspect.
It is absurd to put that level of burden on them.


They are only suppose to provide reasonable security measures. If they have security guards etc then that is reasonable.



As far as I know they weren't held liable. The judge ruled against the four people saying that it is unreasonable for
The movie theater to have to predict future threats and it is.

I think you are missing my point. It pisses me off that these bigger companies are allowed to exist in these quasi liable states. I work with insurance man. And the entire point of insurance is to TAKE money. It isn't to pay out. And they will avoid it ALL costs. Be it homes, business, auto, or life. It is a rigged system.

So if we are going to claim "reasonable measures," then that would include some reasonable enforcement of their policies. Armed security? Checking for guns? How about checking the exit doors he had propped open? Let's put it this way: would you say my movie theater has reasonably enforced their security policy by checking handbags ONLY (primarily carried by women), and never taking precautions regarding other methods of concealed firearms?

I would call that a lack of reasonable measures. I carry a handgun inside the waistband and I keep a spare mag too. That is incredibly common as a method of carry. And nobody catches me. So how is it reasonable? Either they are or are not responsible for updating their security. Either they have a responsibility to the signs they post or they shouldn't post the signs.


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Well like Ikari said: this is a loser pays failure. These people are victims and the security measures failed. And they are essentially being used as an example. It pisses me off because these places only place security measures so they can't be held liable in an incident. But when it is shown to be inadequate? They are not held responsible. And something about that just bugs the hell out of me.

Take this for instance: my local theatre has a "no guns policy." And how do they enforce said policy? They check women's bags at the door. That's it. And when I say "they" I mean a college kid who shines a light in the bag. Maybe. And maybe off duty state cops will be outside (inside when the theatre is closing). And let's not forget that their "no guns" sign does not hold weight of law. Therefor if some concealed carrier doesn't see it...all they can do is ask him or her to leave IF they catch that person (assuming licensed carrier). And how would they do that if they aren't going through metal detectors and getting pat downs?

Essentially? It irks me because either the business should be held liable or it shouldn't. We have occupied this weird quasi liable status. And it reduces the effectiveness of any security measure that could be taken. Personally? I wouldn't hold the theatre liable. As long as they don't put up signs that don't hold weight of law. But if they are going to put up signs...then they should have a duty to enforce them.


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I don't disagree with you in spirit. But a private property owner has the right to allow guns on their property or not. You want to tell an adult to leave his gun in the car at a child's birthday party? That's your right as the owner of that property. And people are free to either leave their gun in their car or not attend the party or lie. By asking people to leave their gun in their car, the property owner doesn't obligate itself to search people and use metal detectors, have armed security or anything else. It was important case law that it came down as it did.
 
This is, IMO, the problem with loser-pays systems. While I understand that there are ridiculous lawsuits that we would want to be reasonable about and cut down on so that people are not sued into bankruptcy for ludicrous reasons, it also means that huge corporations can use it as an intimidation tactic against other potential lawsuits.

To be clear, I think the lawsuit was ridiculous. I understand people were hurting, but this is a movie theater, people come and go all the time to it, there are no metal detectors and no one patting people down, just like the vast majority of public places. And it is ridiculous to demand so, could you imagine that everywhere you go, you’re subjected to “security searches”? No, the lawsuit was dumb, it was never going to work. I’m not defending the lawsuit itself.

However, there does need to be access to the system. If Cinemark did do something wrong, it shouldn’t be able to say “Are you sure you’re going to win? Because if you don’t, you’re going to get a 700,000 dollar bill!”. It’s a form of financial intimidation to prevent people for filing lawsuits in the first place. This is the failure of the loser-pays model. It allows those with means to use those means to intimidate parties into compliance.

The other thing is that number is rather obscene. Let’s say that OK, we’re doing loser-pays. What prevents the big corporations from just running up the bill? If they lose, they can likely afford it, but if they win they can stick the plaintiff with crippling debt that will discourage others from suing in the future. 700,000 for a State civil court? Justice cannot be allowed to evolve into a system for the rich, and the money levels involved seem to be moving in that direction. Perhaps even if we do a loser-pays system, it should be a loser-kind-of-pays, and what can be extracted is limited.

In the end, I just find the loser-pays model of lawsuit to be too easily corrupted and abused and used as a tool to close access to the courts.

I almost agree with that (bolded above) but based on what limit? If I sue you for $X then $X could become that limit. The problem is that if my legal defense team costs me $750/hr and you sue me for $2K (you slipped an fell on my "slick" sidewalk and my insurance deductible is $2K) then it may well cost me more not to simply pay you that $2K making "justice" impossible even if your "civil case" has no merit all. I also doubt that the $700K was more than the damages sought by each plaintiff in this (extremely weak?) case.
 
I almost agree with that (bolded above) but based on what limit? If I sue you for $X then $X could become that limit. The problem is that if my legal defense team costs me $750/hr and you sue me for $2K (you slipped an fell on my "slick" sidewalk and my insurance deductible is $2K) then it may well cost me more not to simply pay you that $2K making "justice" impossible even if your "civil case" has no merit all. I also doubt that the $700K was more than the damages sought by each plaintiff in this (extremely weak?) case.

Yeah..I'm not sure how the system got so far out of hand. but 750/hr is dumb. The best lawyer isn't actually worth that. There's quite a few issues involved, including the ballooning prices of participating in our legal system. That shouldn't be, the legal system is there for all of us, it should be accessible to all of us, not made to be prohibitively expensive. But I don't know how to fix that at this point. I think that you get these ridiculous fees and also some ridiculous rewards if your case gets through. We've taken "pain and suffering" to a level to excuse suing for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I don't know what you would cap it at, it was an idea I threw out as sort of a compromise of the system. In the end, I'm not a fan of loser pays. I think it is far too easily abused and used as a system of intimidation to prevent people from suing the rich and powerful. that being said, the American dream, I feel, has moved away from doing a good job, working hard, improving your lot to being able to sue someone and become rich that way. It's rather disgusting. maybe this is just what we get for being the dickhead species we are.
 
I don't disagree with you in spirit. But a private property owner has the right to allow guns on their property or not. You want to tell an adult to leave his gun in the car at a child's birthday party? That's your right as the owner of that property. And people are free to either leave their gun in their car or not attend the party or lie. By asking people to leave their gun in their car, the property owner doesn't obligate itself to search people and use metal detectors, have armed security or anything else. It was important case law that it came down as it did.

Well there is another problem. "Private property owner." What is the difference between your home and a movie theatre? Well. Primarily...you aren't open to the public. You don't serve the public. If a place is open to the public...it should have to abide by all laws within the public sphere. So they shouldn't be allowed to ban "carry" unless carry is something specified in their state (or if said state has signs showing weight of law). They have a different set of rules to follow regarding the public. That is the precedent that has been set with all recent challenges to the law.


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This was a blatantly frivolous lawsuit. Unless these four people are expecting TSA style security in every public space in the world then they're getting what they deserve. The fact that they rejected a settlement is icing on the cake. Hopefully these for money hungry pigs can get nice upperclass jobs to pay for Cinemark's legal fees.

Check out the big heart on Brett!

One of these four is a now paralyzed woman who lost a child and an unborn baby in the assault. "Money-hungry pig" indeed.

Ikari has this right. Fact is, these plaintiffs didn't have much of a case, but neither did they force Cinemark to pay $500K for a parade of expert witnesses and hire a team of corporate lawyers. A $700K bill is not justice.

Loser pays is bad law. It turns the civil court system into a poker game, and anyone who plays poker knows that if you're bankroll is big enough, it doesn't really matter what cards you're holding.
 
Yeah..I'm not sure how the system got so far out of hand. but 750/hr is dumb. The best lawyer isn't actually worth that. There's quite a few issues involved, including the ballooning prices of participating in our legal system. That shouldn't be, the legal system is there for all of us, it should be accessible to all of us, not made to be prohibitively expensive. But I don't know how to fix that at this point. I think that you get these ridiculous fees and also some ridiculous rewards if your case gets through. We've taken "pain and suffering" to a level to excuse suing for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I don't know what you would cap it at, it was an idea I threw out as sort of a compromise of the system. In the end, I'm not a fan of loser pays. I think it is far too easily abused and used as a system of intimidation to prevent people from suing the rich and powerful. that being said, the American dream, I feel, has moved away from doing a good job, working hard, improving your lot to being able to sue someone and become rich that way. It's rather disgusting. maybe this is just what we get for being the dickhead species we are.

I am currently pursuing a civil action (getting uncontested guardianship of my 94 year old father, who has severe dementia) and it will cost about $3,700. That is based on $2,800 in attorney fees (at $350/hr) and $900 in court costs/filing fees. That seems to be a huge cost for a common civil need - keep in mind that this cost is for an uncontested civil legal matter.
 
I am currently pursuing a civil action (getting uncontested guardianship of my 94 year old father, who has severe dementia) and it will cost about $3,700. That is based on $2,800 in attorney fees (at $350/hr) and $900 in court costs/filing fees. That seems to be a huge cost for a common civil need - keep in mind that this cost is for an uncontested civil legal matter.

That is a huge amount for something, particularly since it's uncontested, that should be just some paperwork. it's obscene on some level. I don't know how to fix it without something looking like a horribly draconian use of government...but I think something needs to be done. The financial scales need to be reduced so that the scales of justice serve all fairly and reasonably.
 
It's not a price cap on service fees. It's price cap on what a loser could pay per hour/case.

In other words, let's say the cap is $100 an hour, but the attorney charged $150 an hour. The attorney works 10 hours. The loser would pay the first $1000 and then the client of the attorney would be responsible for the rest ($500). That way if you have the money to afford high priced attorneys, you can still do that and they can still be compensated, but then the person who brings the lawsuit, who DIDN'T get that quality of representation, doesn't have to pay for the whole thing either.

Basically in this particular case, the plaintiffs have to pay for the theaters high quality lawyers, even though they received none of the benefit of the lawyers. My idea, while unlikely and nearly impossible to implement, would at least prevent that type of thing from happening.
Ok. I interpreted your statement as a cap on fees.
 
well, i don't know what Cinemark was expected to do, this nutcase would've simply killed any security guards who got in his way. as a security guard myself, i know we'd never see it coming if he was serious, end of story. i don't care how jacked up security you hire, someone like this is going to simply target us first.

now, as for making them pay 700k...not sure how i feel about that. on the one hand their demands were unreasonable from the beginning as i don't feel the theater is responsible for this, on the other hand it seems like they're committing public relations suicide if they follow-through with this.

Not sure about the public relations suicide part, but I, for one, am never going to go to any Cinemark ever again.
 
Judge rules four survivors of Colorado theater shooting must pay Cinemark $700K



Judge rules four survivors of Colorado theater shooting must pay Cinemark $700K | Fox 59

I'm sure some of you will say that they should have taken the "settlement." Maybe. But failing to uphold your security? And then on top of that they had settled and essentially admitted fault to others already. They could deny them settlement without demanding $700k from victims. What a joke.


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Good.

You do realize they'll never have to pay it, right?
 
A settlement does not mean that you admit fault. Businesses often settle because its cheaper than continual attorney fees.

I was on the fence after reading the OP, but this post delivers the final judgement. Cinemark settled with the plaintiffs in order to let bygones be bygones and save any further legal fees. These four douchbags, however, still wanted to get rich fast and refused to settle. Well, it seems they got their ass handed to them instead. Pay up bitches.
 
Judge rules four survivors of Colorado theater shooting must pay Cinemark $700K



Judge rules four survivors of Colorado theater shooting must pay Cinemark $700K | Fox 59

I'm sure some of you will say that they should have taken the "settlement." Maybe. But failing to uphold your security? And then on top of that they had settled and essentially admitted fault to others already. They could deny them settlement without demanding $700k from victims. What a joke.


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That's the law in Colorado. Don't sue unless you prepare for the legal fees of the defendant if you lose.
 
That is a huge amount for something, particularly since it's uncontested, that should be just some paperwork. it's obscene on some level. I don't know how to fix it without something looking like a horribly draconian use of government...but I think something needs to be done. The financial scales need to be reduced so that the scales of justice serve all fairly and reasonably.

One of the problems is that lawyers make the laws which require the use of lawyers in the process. I agree that it should be a simple matter of presenting the case to a judge - is dad demented (yes, I have VA medical records to prove that) and am I, as his eldest son, a suitable guardian (yes, including a recommendation by the state [DADS and APS] to take over in that role).

The state took over as "temporary" guardian after my younger brother decided to "retire" on my father's "excess" retirement income (dad makes $4,300/month and his VA care home expenses are $1,800/month), had my incompetent father deed him his house (which he sold to buy himself a house) and spent all of my father's life savings - he was finally caught on to by APS (Adult Protective Services) after we (myself and my youngest brother) made repeated calls to APS and the VA to stop the abuse. I tried to get my brother criminally charged but apparently have no "legal standing" to do so - the sheriff and DA said that "alleged" senior abuse is a civil matter and that only my father or his legal guardian can make a criminal complaint.
 
Judge rules four survivors of Colorado theater shooting must pay Cinemark $700K



Judge rules four survivors of Colorado theater shooting must pay Cinemark $700K | Fox 59

I'm sure some of you will say that they should have taken the "settlement." Maybe. But failing to uphold your security? And then on top of that they had settled and essentially admitted fault to others already. They could deny them settlement without demanding $700k from victims. What a joke.


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You refuse the settlement and go to court, you are rolling the dice. The four did, they lost.
 
I think you are missing my point. It pisses me off that these bigger companies are allowed to exist in these quasi liable states. I work with insurance man. And the entire point of insurance is to TAKE money. It isn't to pay out. And they will avoid it ALL costs. Be it homes, business, auto, or life. It is a rigged system.

They don't exist in a quasi liable state. They do have to maintain a reasonable amount of security, However they cannot be held responsible
for some event that might occur. Insurance has nothing to do with this.

So if we are going to claim "reasonable measures," then that would include some reasonable enforcement of their policies. Armed security? Checking for guns? How about checking the exit doors he had propped open? Let's put it this way: would you say my movie theater has reasonably enforced their security policy by checking handbags ONLY (primarily carried by women), and never taking precautions regarding other methods of concealed firearms?

The shooter was outside not inside. he was beyond the theaters realm of influence.
What is considered reasonable is up to them.

I would call that a lack of reasonable measures. I carry a handgun inside the waistband and I keep a spare mag too. That is incredibly common as a method of carry. And nobody catches me. So how is it reasonable? Either they are or are not responsible for updating their security. Either they have a responsibility to the signs they post or they shouldn't post the signs.

That is your opinion. It is not their job to track what happens outside of the theater where in this case the shooter was.
That is not reasonable burden.
 
Yeah..I'm not sure how the system got so far out of hand. but 750/hr is dumb. The best lawyer isn't actually worth that. There's quite a few issues involved, including the ballooning prices of participating in our legal system. That shouldn't be, the legal system is there for all of us, it should be accessible to all of us, not made to be prohibitively expensive. But I don't know how to fix that at this point. I think that you get these ridiculous fees and also some ridiculous rewards if your case gets through. We've taken "pain and suffering" to a level to excuse suing for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I don't know what you would cap it at, it was an idea I threw out as sort of a compromise of the system. In the end, I'm not a fan of loser pays. I think it is far too easily abused and used as a system of intimidation to prevent people from suing the rich and powerful. that being said, the American dream, I feel, has moved away from doing a good job, working hard, improving your lot to being able to sue someone and become rich that way. It's rather disgusting. maybe this is just what we get for being the dickhead species we are.

We're talking about a defense team, not a single lawyer's hourly rate. And yeah given the potential liability the company was fighting against $700k doesn't sound unreasonable. They were damaged by the plaintiffs and the plaintiffs need to cough up. Anyone in their right mind would know there was little the company could do to stop what happened. When one goes out in the world there is some assumption of risk that bad people will do bad things and there isn't a damn thing to be done about it.
 
What, exactly, can any business do to prevent an armed criminal from shooting patrons? The idea that any business open to the public must have security measures in place sufficient to prevent an armed criminal from shooting random customers is absurd.

Why is a reasonable expectation that a business open to the public would install security measures to protect its customer be absurd?
 
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