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DOJ overrules FBI on gun sales debate, says no-fly list can be used for ban [W65]

Stopping the sale of guns to those on FBI Terrorist Watch Lists... is bad?

There was this incident in Florida last week at a night club that you might want to read up on...

There a thing called the US Constitution (I know you don't live here, but if you visited it would protect you just as it does me) that precludes the government from creating lists and then alienating people from their inalienable rights.
 
Fine, then require the government to establish "Probable Cause" (as required by the 4th Amendment) before they gather any evidence but only while done under the limitations of a Search Warrant issued by a Competent Court (as protected by the 4th Amendment), then before any rights can be, violated, limited, or revoked by the government (including those of the 2nd Amendment), require the government to inform the accused of what the charges are that are being brought by the government and what evidence they are based upon (as required by the 6th Amendment), then allow the accused to retain legal council (as required by the 6th Amendment), and allow the accused to call witnesses to testify as to their innocence (as required by the 6th Amendment) then, and only then, must the government present their case before a Grand Jury (as required by the 5th Amendment) to seek an Indictment (as required by the 5th Amendment) to ensure that the accused is provided Due Process of Law (as required by both the 5th and 14th Amendments) just as any other person being accused of a crime by the government would be afforded Equal Protection Under the Law (as required and protected by the 14th Amendment). What happened to The Presumption of Innocence (Innocent Until Proven Guilty) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_v._United_States]? Should we just allow some government employee in some office somewhere to decide who is allowed their rights as protected by the US Constitution, and who is not? If a "potential terrorist" as you called them, is not allowed to buy a firearm, then should they also be allowed to vote? The Orlando terrorist was a US Citizen, with the right to vote in all US elections. Should he had been stripped of that right as well as his right to keep and bear arms? If that's true (although it's a huge leap in assumptions by you) then what you propose wouldn't work anyway - because "they already have guns" as you say. Really? Senator Edward Kennedy knew he was being watched before he showed up at Reagan National Airport and found out he was on the "No-Fly List?" Stop the attempt with a semi-automatic rifle? Maybe, but you said they already had guns. What it won't do, is stop a bomb with C4, or Liquefied Oxygen from the welding store and basic Sugar, or Ammonium Nitrate [fertilizer] mixed with Fuel Oil, (ANFO), or any number of other items that can be bought at Walmart that can kill just as many (if not more) than were killed in Orlando by a rifle. Really? Then how about let's also try restricting people on the list from being able to attend their Mosque, or Church, or to speak out, or to write their beliefs on an internet forum like this one since that's partly how radicalization occurs? It would be very simple... while we're removing rights, we can just add the 1st Amendment right to Right to Freedom of Speech and the Right to the Free Exercise of Religion. Isn't it worth it? In order to have an extra level of safety?

This post silences any and all proposition to using a terror watch list to prohibit gun ownership.
 
Putting people on a watch list without dues process is good?

Why not? Cops have been doing it forever in this country... they investigate. They overwhelmingly investigate those thought to be criminals or guilty of a crime.

This is a good thing...
 
The insanity is stripping people of their civil rights illegally.

Next thing you know, the government will

...ahhh, the "next thing you know" argument. Well, I guess you win.
 
Why not? Cops have been doing it forever in this country... they investigate. They overwhelmingly investigate those thought to be criminals or guilty of a crime.

This is a good thing...

Investigate, not arbitrarily place people on a government list, that strips them of their civil rights.

There is no investigation that places one on the list, nor do people become the subject of an investigation remove one's civil rights.
 
This post silences any and all proposition to using a terror watch list to prohibit gun ownership.

I doubt it. Extremism is just that, and it sees no truth that is not defined or allowed by its own extremism.
 
...ahhh, the "next thing you know" argument. Well, I guess you win.

I do, indeed. So far, you haven't told me what safeguards are in place to protect against, "next thing you know".
 
There a thing called the US Constitution (I know you don't live here, but if you visited it would protect you just as it does me) that precludes the government from creating lists and then alienating people from their inalienable rights.

I am an American citizen and lived there for 35 years so I am quite familiar. I also taught US history and government.

The government is not violating any right by creating lists... I know you made that big list a few posts back trying to tie them all in but that didn't work. The government can investigate and surveil and not violating any rights.
 
I doubt it. Extremism is just that, and it sees no truth that is not defined or allowed by its own extremism.

Of course the pro-tyranny folks won't get it, until of course, it's their ox that is getting gored.
 
So much for the 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments.

Who needs Civil Rights???

We are working our way toward an actual civil war, if this insanity doesn't stop soon.

Yep, and the Democrats will be Civil War II's Confederates.
 
I am an American citizen and lived there for 35 years so I am quite familiar. I also taught US history and government.

The government is not violating any right by creating lists... I know you made that big list a few posts back trying to tie them all in but that didn't work. The government can investigate and surveil and not violating any rights.

The list, alone, might not be unconstitutional, but using the list to revoke civil rights is absolutely unconstitutional.
 
I do, indeed. So far, you haven't told me what safeguards are in place to protect against, "next thing you know".

How can I safe guard against what has not happened? The Constitution works and is not being violated. I am fine with how things are now..
 
The list, alone, might not be unconstitutional, but using the list to revoke civil rights is absolutely unconstitutional.

I can agree with that... I am wrong. The list is fine. No rights violated. Denying gun ownershio based on a "list" does violate a citizens rights.
 
Of course the pro-tyranny folks won't get it, until of course, it's their ox that is getting gored.

Can't you people be honest enough to actually acknowledge that the motivation is "stop terrorists from buying guns" instead of all this bull**** you come up with?
 
The insanity is stripping people of their civil rights illegally.

Next thing you know, the government will prohibit watch list people from voting, obtaining a pass port, obtaining a TWIC, disqualifying people from certain jobs. Where do you think the line will be drawn? If you think it will end with, "buying an AR-15", you're lying to yourself.

Absurd. None of those things kill innocent people.
 
I am an American citizen and lived there for 35 years so I am quite familiar. I also taught US history and government.

The government is not violating any right by creating lists... I know you made that big list a few posts back trying to tie them all in but that didn't work. The government can investigate and surveil and not violating any rights.
so long as the law is followed, yes. Just a couple of months ago the courts ruled that the police are not free to put tracking devices on our cars without court approval, as one for instance.
 
so long as the law is followed, yes. Just a couple of months ago the courts ruled that the police are not free to put tracking devices on our cars without court approval, as one for instance.

That was a good ruling... we need to keep police in check.
 
I am an American citizen and lived there for 35 years so I am quite familiar. I also taught US history and government.

The government is not violating any right by creating lists... I know you made that big list a few posts back trying to tie them all in but that didn't work. The government can investigate and surveil and not violating any rights.

You taught US History and Government? Then why the argument about the government not being able to punish a civilian without Due Process of Law? Of course they can investigate and surveil anyone they wish - They cannot, however, use a list to deprive US Citizens of their Constitutional Rights. Removing civil rights is the very definition of the government punishing a civilian for a breach of law - removing a person's rights is criminal punishment - putting a person in prison to deny them their rights and their freedom, is second only in punitive effect to the death penalty. All are forms of criminal punishment.

Here, read this:

6th Amendment to the US Constitution -

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

A secret list that a person cannot even find out if they are on it, or why they may be on it, is antithetical to "... be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; ..." and how in the world is the accused going "to be confronted with the witnesses against him" when it's some bureaucrat in the FBI whom they don't even know, and then... and this one really concerns me... they cannot obtain witnesses in their favor because they don't even know what the accusation actually is, and they cannot retain a lawyer because they don't even know they're on the damned list to begin with.
 
Absurd. None of those things kill innocent people.

What's to stop the government from taking your rights after you've surrendered them? Are we supposed to trust the government not to do something stupid?
 
What's to stop the government from taking your rights after you've surrendered them? Are we supposed to trust the government not to do something stupid?

What's to stop them from taking your rights now?
 
That was a good ruling... we need to keep police in check.

But, you want to take the checks off the government? Do you understand how you massively contradicted yourself?
 
What's to stop them from taking your rights now?

The fact that those of us who care about rights actually fight for them instead of believing people like you.
 
You taught US History and Government? Then why the argument about the government not being able to punish a civilian without Due Process of Law? Of course they can investigate and surveil anyone they wish - They cannot, however, use a list to deprive US Citizens of their Constitutional Rights. Removing civil rights is the very definition of the government punishing a civilian for a breach of law - removing a person's rights is criminal punishment - putting a person in prison to deny them their rights and their freedom, is second only in punitive effect to the death penalty. All are forms of criminal punishment.

Here, read this:

6th Amendment to the US Constitution -

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

A secret list that a person cannot even find out if they are on it, or why they may be on it, is antithetical to "... be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; ..." and how in the world is the accused going "to be confronted with the witnesses against him" when it's some bureaucrat in the FBI whom they don't even know, and then... and this one really concerns me... they cannot obtain witnesses in their favor because they don't even know what the accusation actually is, and they cannot retain a lawyer because they don't even know they're on the damned list to begin with.

I conflated two issues... my bad. Using the list to deny the purchase of guns is Unconstitutional. I agree.

If the government does not want that individual to buy a gun then they need to prove a case. New laws and procedures are needed. Patchwork bandaids on existing laws in an effort to keep an investigation going will not work.
 
Yep, and the Democrats will be Civil War II's Confederates.

Not really. There are many Republican lawmakers that are also in favor of this madness.

A more accurate description would not be Democrats or Republicans, but rather Progressives that feel the US Constitution is an impediment to their gaining complete control of our lives.
 
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