Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future President

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Waterboarding is torture...some say. That's the idea. Using tactics to extract useful information in order to keep citizens safe.
Bringing donuts won't have the same effect.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Lovebug said:

Waterboarding is torture...some say. That's the idea. Using tactics to extract useful information in order to keep citizens safe.
Bringing donuts won't have the same effect.

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Almost all people consider water boarding torture. Hell we prosecuted people for waterboarding in the past.

There is not proof that torture works to extract useful information. There is plenty of proof that it produces false information.

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should do it.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

smb said:

Almost all people consider water boarding torture. Hell we prosecuted people for waterboarding in the past.

There is not proof that torture works to extract useful information. There is plenty of proof that it produces false information.

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should do it.

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I disagree. Lets hope that those who say we shouldn't torture will never be faced with a life or death situation. We often render opinions from our comfy abodes, and it is all fine and good to have compassion for some vile criminal. I have compassion for the innocent victims. Nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Lovebug said:

I disagree. Lets hope that those who say we shouldn't torture will never be faced with a life or death situation. We often render opinions from our comfy abodes, and it is all fine and good to have compassion for some vile criminal. I have compassion for the innocent victims. Nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

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The ends do not justify means. Never have never will. To suggest that, because I don't believe in torture, I do not have compassion for the victims is nonsense. Our society was built on the notion that we will not tolerate cruel and unusual punishments. You would sell our society's sole because of your fear.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

smb said:

Not really. This was done for several reasons. Do not think for a second that Brennen is against water boarding at the CIA for altruistic reasons. Brennen knows that any administration that requests this type activity will leave the CIA holding the bag like the Bush Admin did. So he comes out now and says emphatically the CIA will not do this. This accomplishes two things, gives future CIA officers that refuse to perform these techniques legal cover and it automatically makes this and issue with the confirmation hearing of the next CIA director. Brennen does not want CIA officers involved with this because, whether or not and individual administration can get some legal hack to sign off on it or not it will be determined illegal and he does not want any CIA officers left holding the bag.

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I don't trust a damn thing the CIA says; I wouldn't be surprised if even the president wouldn't be able to find out everything...

Tigerace117 said:

The problem with that is that often times it ties one hand behind your back, while the terrorists can take advantage of your decency to kill American soldiers. In Mogadishu, for instance, there was more than one report of Somali fighters using women and kids as spotters or human shields. It's bullcrap that terrorists can attack civillians and then try to hide behind the Geneva convention and our morality to avoid having to pay for their crimes.

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It's called being civilized, and civilization isn't "bullcrap".

If you use the same tactics your enemy does, you're no better than the enemy, even if "they started it!"

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Gaugingcatenate said:

Does not mean we have dropped to the level of our enemies .

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Yes, it does.

Intoning the mantra "save American lives" doesn't change that, nor does it mean you can some how be morally in support of torture.

Gaugingcatenate said:

They have a choice, they don't have to be waterboarded, they could simply give the information up. Problem solved, no necessity to waterboard.

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They would say the same thing, except "simply give the information up", it would be "simply become a fundamentalist muslim and support the caliphate".

You're twisting yourself into an extradimensional pretzel in an attempt to convince yourself that somehow, you can be righteous and moral while supporting torture.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Lovebug said:

Waterboarding is torture...some say. That's the idea. Using tactics to extract useful information in order to keep citizens safe.
Bringing donuts won't have the same effect.

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And yet the people actually doing the waterboarding say traditional methods are more effective.

This might shock some people - it really shouldn't, but you know, some people... - but someone who is being tortured will say or do anything to make the torture stop. Because torture is the worst thing you can do to a sentient being, such as a homo sapien.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

smb said:

How does it insulate anyone? It does give them cover when they refuse the order to torture but it cannot and does not insulate people who torture.

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It gives them cover if and when they refuse an order to water board? It moves the responsibility onto the requesting party if it is outside the CIA.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

OpportunityCost said:

It gives them cover if and when they refuse an order to water board? It moves the responsibility onto the requesting party if it is outside the CIA.

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Which is what a boss should do for his employees. What am I missing?

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Mr Person said:

Yes, it does.

Intoning the mantra "save American lives" doesn't change that, nor does it mean you can some how be morally in support of torture.






They would say the same thing, except "simply give the information up", it would be "simply become a fundamentalist muslim and support the caliphate".

You're twisting yourself into an extradimensional pretzel in an attempt to convince yourself that somehow, you can be righteous and moral while supporting torture.

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Sorry dude, you don't get to make up the rules, its not a weenies world out there. You folks and your fantasy world of happily ever afters doesn't just happen, requires work and tough decisions. Your moral equivalent of waterboarding a mass murderer vs the innocent people having no choice to jump from a 110 stories disgusts me. Your implied moral superiority gets others killed. This isn't a video game out there, its the real world with real evil.

That's why we have to beat them. If they take me, or all the children they have been beheading, the Jordanian pilot in a cage doused with flammable chemicals and lit on fire... and they want to force me to become a Muslim/support the caliphate... what did I do, or did those children do or that Jordanian POW sacrificial offering to Allah... you somehow equate that all the same as waterboarding a known terrorist that might, and did, have information to save fellow Americans. Sad.

Bet you don't kill mosquitoes either, do ya? I mean, they are just doing what nature intended, why would you kill a thing that is sucking blood out of you, eh?

You think you and your empty words can sway someone of strong mind and who believes in self defense? The most moral thing to do is nip it right in the bud, kill the @@@@ out of anybody that messes with Americans, get all the intel you can, beat them quick and hard, no mercy, before the lefties have a chance to get involved and talk us into what amounts to mass suicide.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

smb said:

Which is what a boss should do for his employees. What am I missing?

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It pushes the culpability back and forth so both sides can try to play against the middle, just politics.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Gaugingcatenate said:

Sorry dude, you don't get to make up the rules, its not a weenies world out there. You folks and your fantasy world of happily ever afters doesn't just happen, requires work and tough decisions. Your moral equivalent of waterboarding a mass murderer vs the innocent people having no choice to jump from a 110 stories disgusts me. Your implied moral superiority gets others killed. This isn't a video game out there, its the real world with real evil.

That's why we have to beat them. If they take me, or all the children they have been beheading, the Jordanian pilot in a cage doused with flammable chemicals and lit on fire... and they want to force me to become a Muslim/support the caliphate... what did I do, or did those children do or that Jordanian POW sacrificial offering to Allah... you somehow equate that all the same as waterboarding a known terrorist that might, and did, have information to save fellow Americans. Sad.

Bet you don't kill mosquitoes either, do ya? I mean, they are just doing what nature intended, why would you kill a thing that is sucking blood out of you, eh?

You think you and your empty words can sway someone of strong mind and who believes in self defense? The most moral thing to do is nip it right in the bud, kill the @@@@ out of anybody that messes with Americans, get all the intel you can, beat them quick and hard, no mercy, before the lefties have a chance to get involved and talk us into what amounts to mass suicide.

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Ah, but it IS a weenies world out there.

The Weenies in the Bush administration Office of Legal Counsel, completely ignored the letter and spirit of Geneva Conventions and 18USC2441 and told the Weenie in Chief that torture was legal.

And then all the Weenies in the Weenie Gallery nodded their heads on the way to their various Christian Churches and convinced themselves that YES, torture is just fine. Certainly Jesus would torture if he were in my position, right?!?!

Hate your next door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace. Call it something besides torture, and Jesus would be doing it too.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Thoreau72 said:

Ah, but it IS a weenies world out there.

The Weenies in the Bush administration Office of Legal Counsel, completely ignored the letter and spirit of Geneva Conventions and 18USC2441 and told the Weenie in Chief that torture was legal.

And then all the Weenies in the Weenie Gallery nodded their heads on the way to their various Christian Churches and convinced themselves that YES, torture is just fine. Certainly Jesus would torture if he were in my position, right?!?!

Hate your next door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace. Call it something besides torture, and Jesus would be doing it too.

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Yeah, well then its the weenies that won all the wars we have fought... certainly isnt't the folks that think like you, who ignore the depth to which the predators of the world will go. You won't even allow a technique that IS effective and is so low on the scale of human anxiety and suffering that it could be equated with an involuntary ride on a decent roller coaster, scary, but whats all the fuss?

And to allow liberal weenies in Geneva to determine what our presidents, who are tasked with the primary responsibility of protecting innocent Americans from the harm of terrorists and others that would do us harm, can DO or NOT DO?

One would have to say that is of monosyllabic thought slobber-dripped to its lowest order.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Gaugingcatenate said:

Yeah, well then its the weenies that won all the wars we have fought... certainly isnt't the folks that think like you, who ignore the depth to which the predators of the world will go. You won't even allow a technique that IS effective and is so low on the scale of human anxiety and suffering that it could be equated with an involuntary ride on a decent roller coaster, scary, but whats all the fuss?

And to allow liberal weenies in Geneva to determine what our presidents, who are tasked with the primary responsibility of protecting innocent Americans from the harm of terrorists and others that would do us harm, can DO or NOT DO?

One would have to say that is of monosyllabic thought slobber-dripped to its lowest order.

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Oh, I understand very well the depths to which the predators of the world will go, yes I do. Torture is a perfect example of it. The predators of the world will torture people and be proud of it. Yeah sure, they will call it something else for the benefit of a gullible and easily-led church-going public, but how hard is that?

They will ignore the rule of law, commit military aggression and kill all sorts of innocent bystanders in the process.

Yes, I'm aware of the dark side of the human condition. Dick even told us he was taking us there. At least he was honest in that regard.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

TheDemSocialist said:

Read more @: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future President

Well its good that CIA officers wont waterboard again. But what about CIA contractors who waterboard? CIA foreign partners working in CIA-paid jails? What about them? I have a suspicion that their waterboard activities will go on... [/FONT][/COLOR]

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I'd rather the CIA director, even if he will not waterboard these sub-humans, just say he won't discuss anything about how they get information. Why should we give information away to our enemies? Are there any press releases from Isis telling us what they will and will not do, so we can exploit them?

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Anthony60 said:

I'd rather the CIA director, even if he will not waterboard these sub-humans, just say he won't discuss anything about how they get information. Why should we give information away to our enemies? Are there any press releases from Isis telling us what they will and will not do, so we can exploit them?

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That is a good point, and perhaps more of what is really going on. I think even a wimp like Obama and his current servants realize that a time may come when one needs all options on the table. I am sure our enemies are well aware of that fact.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Lovebug said:

That is a good point, and perhaps more of what is really going on. I think even a wimp like Obama and his current servants realize that a time may come when one needs all options on the table. I am sure our enemies are well aware of that fact.

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I am a little puzzled by Obama's policy of telling our enemies what we will not do when we may be entering into a conflict. I am not sure what the value is to the operation and its success. There is plenty of downside, like the enemy not having to divert resources to defend against ground troops, when we've already told them we won't be sending any.

It used to be that our operations were an utmost secret, where the enemy would risk spies in order to get that info. Giving that info to the enemy was treason. Now, Obama just blurts it out. Oh, and Hillary leaves it out there on an unsecured server for them to exploit.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Anthony60 said:

I am a little puzzled by Obama's policy of telling our enemies what we will not do when we may be entering into a conflict. I am not sure what the value is to the operation and its success. There is plenty of downside, like the enemy not having to divert resources to defend against ground troops, when we've already told them we won't be sending any.

It used to be that our operations were an utmost secret, where the enemy would risk spies in order to get that info. Giving that info to the enemy was treason. Now, Obama just blurts it out. Oh, and Hillary leaves it out there on an unsecured server for them to exploit.

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Perhaps he is trying to reach out. Not sure. A great notion, but hopelessly naive, imo.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Mr Person said:

Why you should care that the "land of the free, home of the brave" - the country that's supposed to be the counter-point to tyrannical torturing governments - tortures people and/or arranges for people to be tortured?

You don't say where you live, but I hope you aren't American. Too many of my fellow Americans have forgotten that in order to be principled, you have to actually respect principles. Too many are willing to sink to the level of whomever we are fighting. In other words, torture doesn't become OK just because you think or know the victim is a bad person. Torture is simply wrong period.

A paraphrase of a better known quote: if you go after ISIS because they're evil, you must take care not to become evil yourself in the process.

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Written as someone who has never been on the front line of anything. Group hugs don't work, buddy.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Thoreau72 said:

Oh, I understand very well the depths to which the predators of the world will go, yes I do. Torture is a perfect example of it. The predators of the world will torture people and be proud of it. Yeah sure, they will call it something else for the benefit of a gullible and easily-led church-going public, but how hard is that?

They will ignore the rule of law, commit military aggression and kill all sorts of innocent bystanders in the process.

Yes, I'm aware of the dark side of the human condition. Dick even told us he was taking us there. At least he was honest in that regard.

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You may get off your knees now, can stop your genuflecting to the church of the idealistically unsound... one is allowed to stand every once in a while isn't one, walk around biped-ally?

Your rabid distaste of anything GOP is noted... that I am aware, there are unfortunately very few instances of those who are able to overcome, to cure themselves of this seemingly contagious malady, lacking of logic combined with a large gullibility. But I guess if you are going to live in a fantasy world, might as well have it hermetically sealed in such a manner as to exclude the one and include the other.

We simply have a different view of innocent lives vs the lives of known perpetrators, who it sounds like you would give the benefit of the doubt to above fellow Americans, especially if they are of the Republican stripe. That and what should be considered torture. Hell, our real weenies [ apologies to you brave guys out there, just making a point to a misinformed poster] the Navy Seals used it as part of their training only doing away with it when nobody could do it without breaking, which was bad for morale.

I get ya and deny ya. With cause.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Mr Person said:

Why you should care that the "land of the free, home of the brave" - the country that's supposed to be the counter-point to tyrannical torturing governments - tortures people and/or arranges for people to be tortured?

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Well, we are not really a counterpoint to any government, we have our own set of beliefs. And we have shown, time and again, that we are willing to do what we must (excepting Obama) to defend our way of life.

Too many of my fellow Americans have forgotten that in order to be principled, you have to actually respect principles. Too many are willing to sink to the level of whomever we are fighting. In other words, torture doesn't become OK just because you think or know the victim is a bad person. Torture is simply wrong period.

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Now, that's interesting. But why is it wrong? I think our enemies torture for the shock value and to show, correctly, how little they value human life. Any tortue we do (and waterboarding doesn't count) is to get information to protect human life. A big difference, in my opinion. Also, our government is charged with our nation's security. There's nothing that says it has to secure our nation, except if torture is used, then it's okay to be a little lacking in security.

A paraphrase of a better known quote: if you go after ISIS because they're evil, you must take care not to become evil yourself in the process.

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Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Gaugingcatenate said:

Yeah, well then its the weenies that won all the wars we have fought... certainly isnt't the folks that think like you, who ignore the depth to which the predators of the world will go. You won't even allow a technique that IS effective and is so low on the scale of human anxiety and suffering that it could be equated with an involuntary ride on a decent roller coaster, scary, but whats all the fuss?

And to allow liberal weenies in Geneva to determine what our presidents, who are tasked with the primary responsibility of protecting innocent Americans from the harm of terrorists and others that would do us harm, can DO or NOT DO?

One would have to say that is of monosyllabic thought slobber-dripped to its lowest order.

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Gosh dern tootin. Y'all know them thar liberals want to destroy merica by abiding by that thar constitution thingy. Them commie bastages don't understand the basic logic that you have to destroy sumpton in order to save it. What bafoons.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

smb said:

Gosh dern tootin. Y'all know them thar liberals want to destroy merica by abiding by that thar constitution thingy. Them commie bastages don't understand the basic logic that you have to destroy sumpton in order to save it. What bafoons.

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Ahhh, I fail to see where in the Constitution it excludes waterboarding. Maybe you can cite a reference? If you are talking about cruel and unusual, it is scary but not cruel... and it has been practiced worldwide for centuries.

All special operations units in all branches of the U.S. military and the CIA's Special Activities Division employ the use of waterboarding as part of survival school (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training, to psychologically prepare soldiers for the possibility of being captured by enemy forces.

So, regale me your facts. Without your unsophisticated attempts at silly yokelisms, if you please.

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Gaugingcatenate said:

Ahhh, I fail to see where in the Constitution it excludes waterboarding. Maybe you can cite a reference? If you are talking about cruel and unusual, it is scary but not cruel... and it has been practiced worldwide for centuries.

All special operations units in all branches of the U.S. military and the CIA's Special Activities Division employ the use of waterboarding as part of survival school (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training, to psychologically prepare soldiers for the possibility of being captured by enemy forces.

So, regale me your facts. Without your unsophisticated attempts at silly yokelisms, if you please.

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USC 18 Sec 2441

(a)Offense.—
Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.
(b)Circumstances.—
The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the person committing such war crime or the victim of such war crime is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act).
(c)Definition.—As used in this section the term “war crime” means any conduct—
(1) defined as a grave breach in any of the international conventions signed at Geneva 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party;
(2) prohibited by Article 23, 25, 27, or 28 of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed 18 October 1907;
(3) which constitutes a grave breach of common Article 3 (as defined in subsection (d)) when committed in the context of and in association with an armed conflict not of an international character; or
(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3 May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol, willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.

Article 31 and 32 of Geneva Convention

ARTICLE 31 [ Link ]

No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised against protected persons, in particular to obtain information from them or from third parties.

ARTICLE 32 [ Link ]

The High Contracting Parties specifically agree that each of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishment, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents.

translation: you have no legal legs to stand on.

Besides your characterization of waterboarding is ridiculous.

Please educate yourself. Also the waterboarding use in SERE training isn't even comparable to the waterboarding employed as a torture technique.

waterboarding.org | "His sufferings must be that of a man who is drowning, but cannot drown." -Lt. Grover Flint, Philippine-American War

Re: Director Brennan: CIA Won't Waterboard Again — Even if Ordered by Future Presiden

Gaugingcatenate said:

You may get off your knees now, can stop your genuflecting to the church of the idealistically unsound... one is allowed to stand every once in a while isn't one, walk around biped-ally?

Your rabid distaste of anything GOP is noted... that I am aware, there are unfortunately very few instances of those who are able to overcome, to cure themselves of this seemingly contagious malady, lacking of logic combined with a large gullibility. But I guess if you are going to live in a fantasy world, might as well have it hermetically sealed in such a manner as to exclude the one and include the other.

We simply have a different view of innocent lives vs the lives of known perpetrators, who it sounds like you would give the benefit of the doubt to above fellow Americans, especially if they are of the Republican stripe. That and what should be considered torture. Hell, our real weenies [ apologies to you brave guys out there, just making a point to a misinformed poster] the Navy Seals used it as part of their training only doing away with it when nobody could do it without breaking, which was bad for morale.

I get ya and deny ya. With cause.

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The only difference between Republicans and Democrats is the symbols of their party, Elephants and Donkeys. That is, the Democrats Obama and Clinton are every bit the criminals that the Republicans Bush and Cheney are. None of them have met an illegitimate war they did not like. All of them deceive the public in similar fashions.

What really is the point you're trying to make? That John Brennan AND Michael Hayden are sources of truth and virtue? :lamo

I am an equal opportunity critic sir.