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US election: Bernie Sanders invited to Vatican by Pope [W:124]

TheDemSocialist said:
:doh
The Pope is the leader and the official spokesperson for the Catholic Church....... Using his position as The Pope, what do you think he is calling on society to do and analyzing society from?
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You are moving the goalposts. Where has the Pope said that the mission of the Church is to promote earthly justice? What you or I think he wants secular authorities to do is a change of subject.
 
Paleocon said:
You are moving the goalposts. Where has the Pope said that the mission of the Church is to promote earthly justice?
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Are you seriously this dull? Look at post #89.

""The current crisis is not only economic and financial but is rooted in an ethical and anthropological crisis. Concern with the idols of power, profit, and money, rather than with the value of the human person has become a basic norm for functioning and a crucial criterion for organization. We have forgotten and are still forgetting that over and above business, logic and the parameters of the market is the human being; and that something is [due to] men and women in as much as they are human beings by virtue of their profound dignity: to offer them the possibility of living a dignified life and of actively participating in the common good. Benedict XVI reminded us that precisely because it is human, all human activity, including economic activity, 30 must be ethically structured and governed (cf. Encyclical Letter Caritas in Veritate, n. 36). We must return to the centrality of the human being, to a more ethical vision of activities and of human relationships without the fear of losing something. (5/25/13)"

"It is a well-known fact that current levels of production are sufficient, yet millions of people are still suffering and dying of starvation. This, dear friends is truly scandalous. A way has to be found to enable everyone to benefit from the fruits of the earth, and not simply to close the gap between the affluent and those who must be satisfied with the crumbs falling from the table, but above all to satisfy the demands of justice, fairness and respect for every human being. (6/20/13)"


" Our duty is to continue to insist, in the present international context, that the human person and human dignity are not simply catchwords, but pillars for creating shared rules and structures capable of passing beyond purely pragmatic or technical approaches in order to eliminate divisions and to bridge existing differences. In this regard, there is a need to oppose the shortsighted economic interests and the mentality of power of a relative few who exclude the majority of the world’s peoples, generating poverty and marginalization and causing a breakdown in society. There is likewise a need to combat the corruption which creates privileges for some and injustices for many others"

What you or I think he wants secular authorities to do is a change of subject.
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Thats PART OF THE MISSION OF THE ****ING CHURCH! :doh Influence "secular authorities" to create some sort of change!
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Are you seriously this dull? Look at post #89.

""The current crisis is not only economic and financial but is rooted in an ethical and anthropological crisis. Concern with the idols of power, profit, and money, rather than with the value of the human person has become a basic norm for functioning and a crucial criterion for organization. We have forgotten and are still forgetting that over and above business, logic and the parameters of the market is the human being; and that something is [due to] men and women in as much as they are human beings by virtue of their profound dignity: to offer them the possibility of living a dignified life and of actively participating in the common good. Benedict XVI reminded us that precisely because it is human, all human activity, including economic activity, 30 must be ethically structured and governed (cf. Encyclical Letter Caritas in Veritate, n. 36). We must return to the centrality of the human being, to a more ethical vision of activities and of human relationships without the fear of losing something. (5/25/13)"

"It is a well-known fact that current levels of production are sufficient, yet millions of people are still suffering and dying of starvation. This, dear friends is truly scandalous. A way has to be found to enable everyone to benefit from the fruits of the earth, and not simply to close the gap between the affluent and those who must be satisfied with the crumbs falling from the table, but above all to satisfy the demands of justice, fairness and respect for every human being. (6/20/13)"


" Our duty is to continue to insist, in the present international context, that the human person and human dignity are not simply catchwords, but pillars for creating shared rules and structures capable of passing beyond purely pragmatic or technical approaches in order to eliminate divisions and to bridge existing differences. In this regard, there is a need to oppose the shortsighted economic interests and the mentality of power of a relative few who exclude the majority of the world’s peoples, generating poverty and marginalization and causing a breakdown in society. There is likewise a need to combat the corruption which creates privileges for some and injustices for many others"


Thats PART OF THE MISSION OF THE ****ING CHURCH! :doh Influence "secular authorities" to create some sort of change!
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Nothing you quoted actually says that. All it really says is that Christians in general have a duty to remember and uphold certain moral standards.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Oh please. Tell me what it says then.
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See the rest of my post.

Gathomas88 said:
Nothing you quoted actually says that. All it really says is that Christians in general have a duty to remember and uphold certain moral standards.
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There's certainly nothing there either condoning, or suggesting that the Church should necessarily support, the policies and ideological principles of political Socialism.
 
Gathomas88 said:
See the rest of my post.

​

There's certainly nothing there either condoning, or suggesting that the Church should necessarily support, the policies and ideological principles of political Socialism.
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Oh Really :confused:
"In this regard, there is a need to oppose the shortsighted economic interests and the mentality of power of a relative few who exclude the majority of the world’s peoples, generating poverty and marginalization and causing a breakdown in society. There is likewise a need to combat the corruption which creates privileges for some and injustices for many others"

--Talking about how the system is set up in a way where the powerful few can exclude the majority thus generating poverty

"Concern with the idols of power, profit, and money, rather than with the value of the human person has become a basic norm for functioning and a crucial criterion for organization. We have forgotten and are still forgetting that over and above business, logic and the parameters of the market is the human being; and that something is [due to] men and women in as much as they are human beings by virtue of their profound dignity: to offer them the possibility of living a dignified life and of actively participating in the common good. Benedict XVI reminded us that precisely because it is human, all human activity, including economic activity, 30 must be ethically structured and governed (cf. Encyclical Letter Caritas in Veritate, n. 36). We must return to the centrality of the human being, to a more ethical vision of activities and of human relationships without the fear of losing something. (5/25/13)"

--This is analysis of a whole system.... And calling for the system to move towards where everyone is offered a dignified life..

"A way has to be found to enable everyone to benefit from the fruits of the earth, and not simply to close the gap between the affluent and those who must be satisfied with the crumbs falling from the table, but above all to satisfy the demands of justice, fairness and respect for every human being. (6/20/13)"

--Another analysis of the system. A system (a way) needs to be found where everyone has justice, fairness, and their needs...

"Just as the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life,
today we also have to say “thou shalt not” to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills.
How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when
the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is
thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of
competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence,
masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any
means of escape"

--Another analysis of the system... Calling for the reshaping of economy... And hey even talks about laws and how the powerful feed on the powerless...

"In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth,
encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the
world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the
goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.
Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain
enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of
it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain,
and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The
culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase. In the
meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us. (11/24/13,
no. 54)"

--Hey another analysis of the economic system. This time being against trickle down economics!
 
TheDemSocialist said:
"In this regard, there is a need to oppose the shortsighted economic interests and the mentality of power of a relative few who exclude the majority of the world’s peoples, generating poverty and marginalization and causing a breakdown in society. There is likewise a need to combat the corruption which creates privileges for some and injustices for many others"

--Talking about how the system is set up in a way where the powerful few can exclude the majority thus generating poverty

"Concern with the idols of power, profit, and money, rather than with the value of the human person has become a basic norm for functioning and a crucial criterion for organization. We have forgotten and are still forgetting that over and above business, logic and the parameters of the market is the human being; and that something is [due to] men and women in as much as they are human beings by virtue of their profound dignity: to offer them the possibility of living a dignified life and of actively participating in the common good. Benedict XVI reminded us that precisely because it is human, all human activity, including economic activity, 30 must be ethically structured and governed (cf. Encyclical Letter Caritas in Veritate, n. 36). We must return to the centrality of the human being, to a more ethical vision of activities and of human relationships without the fear of losing something. (5/25/13)"

--This is analysis of a whole system.... And calling for the system to move towards where everyone is offered a dignified life..

"A way has to be found to enable everyone to benefit from the fruits of the earth, and not simply to close the gap between the affluent and those who must be satisfied with the crumbs falling from the table, but above all to satisfy the demands of justice, fairness and respect for every human being. (6/20/13)"

--Another analysis of the system. A system (a way) needs to be found where everyone has justice, fairness, and their needs...

"Just as the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life,
today we also have to say “thou shalt not” to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills.
How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when
the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is
thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of
competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence,
masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any
means of escape"

--Another analysis of the system... Calling for the reshaping of economy... And hey even talks about laws and how the powerful feed on the powerless...

"In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth,
encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the
world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the
goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.
Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain
enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of
it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain,
and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The
culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase. In the
meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us. (11/24/13,
no. 54)"

--Hey another analysis of the economic system. This time being against trickle down economics!
Click to expand...

A) What and who are you quoting? Provide a source.

B) Being broadly critical of certain aspects of modern Capitalist ideology is not the same thing as supporting Socialism instead. The truth of the matter is that the Church subscribes to neither (nor, really, any) ideology with any degree of fidelity. It seeks only to hold true to its own moral principles, and tends to address secular ideology on an "equal opportunity" basis as such.

For that matter, let's not pretend that a lot of these same criticisms do not hold equally true of Socialist economic systems as well. Socialism is just as "materialistic" as Capitalism, and just as prone to raising up "idols." It simply does so with its focus in different areas.

C) There is nothing here necessarily speaking to Church dogma. This looks like a lot of opinion, and not much else.
 
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Gathomas88 said:
A) What and who are you quoting? Provide a source.
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Here, a early post: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rs-invited-vatican-pope-9.html#post1065758632


B) Being broadly critical of certain aspects of modern Capitalist ideology is not the same thing as supporting Socialism instead. The truth of the matter is that the Church subscribes to neither (or, really, any) ideology with any degree of fidelity. It seeks only to hold true to its own moral principles, and tends to address secular ideology on an "equal opportunity" basis as such.
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Please re-read the discussion between PaleoCon and I. We are discussing if Pope Francis upholds Liberation Theology in one form or another. PaleoCons definition is extremely narrow... If you wanna read our discussion you can start here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rs-invited-vatican-pope-5.html#post1065753339


C) There is nothing here necessarily speaking to Church dogma. This looks like a lot of opinion, and not much else.
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Except you know. The Pope is the leader and the official spokesperson of the Catholic Church...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Here, a early post: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rs-invited-vatican-pope-9.html#post1065758632



Please re-read the discussion between PaleoCon and I. We are discussing if Pope Francis upholds Liberation Theology in one form or another. PaleoCons definition is extremely narrow... If you wanna read our discussion you can start here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rs-invited-vatican-pope-5.html#post1065753339
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Okay, so your source is a bunch of random quotations from various sources, which some agenda-driven organization cherry picked outside of their original context in order to create a certain impression of the Pope's political views. :roll:

That's not exactly convincing with regards to any allegation of "Socialism." Again, none of these quotations either approve of or condemn any particular policy, leader, or mode of economic thought. They simply address what the Pope perceives as being failings of our present system, and calls for some effort to made towards correcting them. He does not specify how, precisely, that might be done.

And no, for the record, Pope Francis is not known for either being a "Liberation Theologist," or a supporter of the same. While he is sympathetic to some of their views on poverty and social justice, he actually had a reputation for being an opponent of Liberation Theology in South America. He has repeatedly shown himself as being opposed to the secular "ideologization" of Church theology in general.

Except you know. The Pope is the leader and the official spokesperson of the Catholic Church...
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Which doesn't change the fact that, unless he's speaking in an officially dogmatic context, he's only voicing his opinions here.

Put bluntly, the Pope is not an economist, nor a policy maker. He doesn't aim to be those things either.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Are you seriously this dull? Look at post #89.

""The current crisis is not only economic and financial but is rooted in an ethical and anthropological crisis. Concern with the idols of power, profit, and money, rather than with the value of the human person has become a basic norm for functioning and a crucial criterion for organization. We have forgotten and are still forgetting that over and above business, logic and the parameters of the market is the human being; and that something is [due to] men and women in as much as they are human beings by virtue of their profound dignity: to offer them the possibility of living a dignified life and of actively participating in the common good. Benedict XVI reminded us that precisely because it is human, all human activity, including economic activity, 30 must be ethically structured and governed (cf. Encyclical Letter Caritas in Veritate, n. 36). We must return to the centrality of the human being, to a more ethical vision of activities and of human relationships without the fear of losing something. (5/25/13)"

"It is a well-known fact that current levels of production are sufficient, yet millions of people are still suffering and dying of starvation. This, dear friends is truly scandalous. A way has to be found to enable everyone to benefit from the fruits of the earth, and not simply to close the gap between the affluent and those who must be satisfied with the crumbs falling from the table, but above all to satisfy the demands of justice, fairness and respect for every human being. (6/20/13)"


" Our duty is to continue to insist, in the present international context, that the human person and human dignity are not simply catchwords, but pillars for creating shared rules and structures capable of passing beyond purely pragmatic or technical approaches in order to eliminate divisions and to bridge existing differences. In this regard, there is a need to oppose the shortsighted economic interests and the mentality of power of a relative few who exclude the majority of the world’s peoples, generating poverty and marginalization and causing a breakdown in society. There is likewise a need to combat the corruption which creates privileges for some and injustices for many others"


Thats PART OF THE MISSION OF THE ****ING CHURCH! :doh Influence "secular authorities" to create some sort of change!
Click to expand...

Dem, the problem seems to be that even though I have asked you something very simple (to provide an instance where the Pope has expressed support for the idea that "the mission of the Church is to promote earthly justice"), you keep failing to comprehend what is being asked.

So let me be clear, I'm not asking for you to find something that you mind-read the Pope to mean that he supports the above thesis, I'm not asking you to find somewhere where the Pope has expressed an opinion on what is just or unjust, I'm not asking you to find something that you think can be extrapolated to the conclusion that the above thesis must be right. I'm asking you, very simply, to find an example of the Pope expressing agreement with the above thesis. Do you understand?
 
Gathomas88 said:
Okay, so your source is a bunch of random quotations from various sources, which some agenda-driven organization cherry picked outside of their original context in order to create a certain impression of the Pope's political views. :roll:
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:lamo The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is not a valid source now?!?!

That's not exactly convincing with regards to any allegation of "Socialism." Again, none of these quotations either approve of or condemn any particular policy, leader, or mode of economic thought.
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This isnt about socialism!

They simply address what the Pope perceives as being failings of our present system, and calls for some effort to made towards correcting them. He does not specify how, precisely, that might be done.
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And that what the discussion me and PaleoCon are having.... What does the Pope perceive as the failings of our present system and how he wishes and what does he call for to fix them.....

And no, for the record, Pope Francis is not known for either being a "Liberation Theologist," or a supporter of the same. While he is sympathetic to some of their views on poverty and social justice, he actually had a reputation for being an opponent of Liberation Theology in South America. He has repeatedly shown himself as being opposed to the secular "ideologization" of Church theology in general.
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Hmmm... Except these words I am using which he expresses as his beliefs may beg to differ...

Which doesn't change the fact that, unless he's speaking in an officially dogmatic context, he's only voicing his opinions here.
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And.... His opinions lead me to believe that he is a liberation theologist....

Put bluntly, the Pope is not an economist, nor a policy maker. He doesn't aim to be those things either.
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Never he said he was nor does he aim to be....
 
Paleocon said:
Dem, the problem seems to be that even though I have asked you something very simple (to provide an instance where the Pope has expressed support for the idea that "the mission of the Church is to promote earthly justice"), you keep failing to comprehend what is being asked.

So let me be clear, I'm not asking for you to find something that you mind-read the Pope to mean that he supports the above thesis, I'm not asking you to find somewhere where the Pope has expressed an opinion on what is just or unjust, I'm not asking you to find something that you think can be extrapolated to the conclusion that the above thesis must be right. I'm asking you, very simply, to find an example of the Pope expressing agreement with the above thesis. Do you understand?
Click to expand...

Oh my god. It seems that what you are looking for is for Pope Francis to say these words and these words only, "I think the mission of the Church is to promote earthly justice".... This is not only incredibly narrow and close minded, but extremely dull... Un ****ing believable...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
:lamo The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is not a valid source now?!?!
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You need to learn how to properly cite sources. No where was that apparent in what you posted.

The document doesn't even have a proper title.

This isnt about socialism!
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Apparently not for you, given that you're trying to make the claim that he is a "Liberation Theologist" - i.e. A political "Marxist" radical masquerading as a priest. :roll:

And that what the discussion me and PaleoCon are having.... What does the Pope perceive as the failings of our present system and how he wishes and what does he call for to fix them.....
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In a nut shell: Materialism, greed, injustice, lack of respect for human life, and general immorality.

Again, hate to break to you there, Dem, but the Pope would almost certainly agree that your side is just as guilty of all of those things (if not actually more guilty, in some regards) than ours.

And.... His opinions lead me to believe that he is a liberation theologist....
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And you would be mistaken.

Liberation Theology

According to Roberto Bosca, an historian at Austral University in Buenos Aires, Father Jorge Bergoglio (later Pope Francis) had "a reputation as an opponent of liberation theology during the 1970s" but he "accepted the premise of liberation theology, especially the option for the poor, but in a 'nonideological' fashion."
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Again, at best, he is sympathetic towards their views regarding the poor.



Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
 
Gathomas88 said:
You need to learn how to properly cite sources. No where was that apparent in what you posted.
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Oh. My. God.... Ever heard of a URL? Now you're trying to justify your logical fallacy by saying, "well they didnt have a nice title at the top of the PDF for me to read"?

The document doesn't even have a proper title.
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352jh1l.png


Apparently not for you, given that you're trying to make the claim that he is a "Liberation Theologist" - i.e. A "Marxist" radical masquerading as a priest. :roll:
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:doh Liberation theology is not Marxism. Marxism rejects religion....

In a nut shell: Materialism, greed, injustice, lack of respect for human life, and general immorality.
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To a degree, yes.
To the ultimate degree that materialism and such can be eliminated? No.
Should it be minimized? Yes.
If you're asking what I definined Liberation Theology is then it was here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rs-invited-vatican-pope-8.html#post1065757856
"Its a movement/practice in the Catholic-Christian faith that focuses mainly on the poor and the oppressed. It calls on the church and society as a whole to work toward a just society and more equal society through social and political change. It calls on the Church to align themselves with the working class and the poor and for the church to ally themselves with movements that call on bringing about a more equal and just society."

Do you have a problem with this definition like PaleoCon did? He does have a problem with it and then said nauh its this narrow definition of, "Church's mission is to bring about justice in earthly society".......

Again, hate to break to you there, Dem, but the Pope would almost certainly agree that your side is just as guilty of all of those things (if not actually more guilty, in some regards) than ours.
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What are you talking about "my side"? My side what? I never ****ing said he was a democratic socialist or a socialist or marxist or whatever.... I simply said he seems to embrace liberation theology... Im not a liberation theologist. Im an atheist after all.



And you would be mistaken.

Liberation Theology

​

Again, at best, he is sympathetic towards their views regarding the poor.
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"but he "accepted the premise of liberation theology, especially the option for the poor, but in a 'nonideological' fashion."

HE accepts the premise of liberation theology... AKA the basis of an argument for your POV.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Oh. My. God.... Ever heard of a URL? Now you're trying to justify your logical fallacy by saying, "well they didnt have a nice title at the top of the PDF for me to read"?
Click to expand...

Try actually giving the URL a title next time, genius, clearly identifying where it's from. Board software gives you the ability to do that, you know. :roll:

I'm not going to google every random acronym I come across.

Liberation theology is not Marxism. Marxism rejects religion....
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Yes, it is Marxism - or, rather, an attempt to meld it's "class warfare" worldview with Catholicism. That, combined with the tendency of a great many "Liberation" theologians to throw in their lots with violent Communist guerilla insurgencies throughout the 1970s and 1980s, is precisely why the Church opposed it.

To a degree, yes.
To the ultimate degree that materialism and such can be eliminated? No.
Should it be minimized? Yes.
Click to expand...

Again, from a Catholic theological perspective, Socialists are no less prone to "materialism" or "raising idols" than Capitalists. They just do so in a different way - i.e. Trying to suppress religion and raise up the state and the state's ideology in its place.

If you think Pope doesn't recognize that, you are mistaken.

If you're asking what I definined Liberation Theology is then it was here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rs-invited-vatican-pope-8.html#post1065757856
Click to expand...

i.e. Vaguely Catholic flavored Revolutionary Marxism.

Again, that's both why the Church has traditionally opposed the movement, and why Pope Francis doesn't ascribe to the movement.

Do you have a problem with this definition like PaleoCon did? He does have a problem with it and then said nauh its this narrow definition of, "Church's mission is to bring about justice in earthly society".......
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You have neither demonstrated that the Church or its present Pope supports "Liberation Theology," nor that the Church views its mission as "bringing about justice in Earthly society."

The mission of the Church is to guide people to heaven in Christ's stead through good council on moral conduct. Nothing more, and nothing less.

"but he "accepted the premise of liberation theology, especially the option for the poor, but in a 'nonideological' fashion."

HE accepts the premise of liberation theology... AKA the basis of an argument for your POV.
Click to expand...

He accepts the basic premise that helping the poor is worthwhile.

That's not the Earth-shattering revelation you're making it out to be, dude. "Liberation ideology" implies a bit more than that.
 
Gathomas88 said:
Try actually giving the URL a title next time, genius, clearly identifying where it's from. Board software gives you the ability to do that, you know. :roll:

I'm not going to google every random acronym I come across.
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Wait so you accuse something of not being valid and now are retracting your statement :lamo All because you didnt look into the URL and/or acronym given at the top :lamo

Yes, it is Marxism - or, rather, an attempt to meld it's "class warfare" worldview with Catholicism. That, combined with the tendency of a great many "Liberation" theologians to throw in their lots with violent Communist guerilla insurgencies throughout the 1970s and 1980s, is precisely why the Church opposed it.
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Again, no its not. Its a social justice movement within a religious movement. Not marxism, not communism.

Again, from a Catholic theological perspective, Socialists are no less prone to "materialism" or "raising idols" than Capitalists. They just do so in a different way - i.e. Trying to suppress religion and raise up the state and the state's ideology in its place.

If you think Pope doesn't recognize that, you are mistaken.
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Again... You are the only one bringing up socialism here... For some reason? I dont know why...

[QUOTE[i.e. Vaguely Catholic flavored Revolutionary Marxism.

Again, that's both why the Church has traditionally opposed the movement, and why Pope Francis doesn't ascribe to the movement.[/QUOTE]
:doh Good god. The Church so much opposed it that the Church has appointed clergy men who have adopted it throughout its history... The Church so much opposed it now someone who has seemed to embrace it is the pope....
Everything is not as black and white as it seems....

You have neither demonstrated that the Church or its present Pope supports "Liberation Theology,"
Click to expand...
See above...

nor that the Church views its mission as "bringing about justice in Earthly society."
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Again I am simply arguing what the leader and the spokesperson of the Catholic church embraces... All you and PaleoCon have done is just screamed "nauh! nauh! nauh!"

The mission of the Church is to guide people to heaven in Christ's stead through good council on moral conduct. Nothing more, and nothing less.
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Cool... Maybe in its most bare bones basic form... Now lets move beyond that and talk about the philosophy of Pope Francis...

He accepts the basic premise that helping the poor is worthwhile.
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And he has spoken out against trickle down economics.... Materialism.... Environment change... Greed... Inequality... But wait thats going beyond , "the mission of the Church is to guide people to heaven in Christ's stead through good council on moral conduct. "....


That's not the Earth-shattering revelation you're making it out to be, dude. "Liberation ideology" implies a bit more than that.
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Oh ****.. The Church is speaking about more than "the mission of the Church is to guide people to heaven in Christ's stead through good council on moral conduct. "!
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Oh my god. It seems that what you are looking for is for Pope Francis to say these words and these words only, "I think the mission of the Church is to promote earthly justice".... This is not only incredibly narrow and close minded, but extremely dull... Un ****ing believable...
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What I am asking is for you to cite anything to that effect. You have unequivocally failed to do so.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Wait so you accuse something of not being valid and now are retracting your statement :lamo All because you didnt look into the URL and/or acronym given at the top :lamo
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I accuse you of shoddy debating practices, because you can't seem to actually a cite a source properly.

Would a college professor let you get away with throwing up a naked URL in a term paper, with no other form of identification?

No?

So don't do it here. It's simple laziness, nothing more.

Again, no its not. Its a social justice movement within a religious movement. Not marxism, not communism.
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In other words, you are ignorant of what "Liberation Theology" actually is. :roll:

Again, so called "Liberation Theologians" try to incorporate Marxist ideological structures into Church dogma, and were widely active in supporting "Revolutionary" Marxist insurgencies throughout Latin America during the 1970s, 1980s, and even the 1990s. That's precisely why the Church has historically opposed them.

Again... You are the only one bringing up socialism here... For some reason? I dont know why...
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Because Liberation Theology is "Socialism," and so too is Bernie Sanders a "Socialist." You are accusing the Pope of being overtly in league with both, and being opposed to Capitalism.

That simply is not the case.

i.e. Vaguely Catholic flavored Revolutionary Marxism.

Again, that's both why the Church has traditionally opposed the movement, and why Pope Francis doesn't ascribe to the movement.
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Liberation Theology is less than fifty years old, and was absolutely savaged by a Church commission under then Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict) in the 1980s for blatantly being "Catholic Marxism."

Again, you don't seem to know what "Liberation Theology" actually is.

Again I am simply arguing what the leader and the spokesperson of the Catholic church embraces... All you and PaleoCon have done is just screamed "nauh! nauh! nauh!
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Again, all you have demonstrated is that the Pope has some criticisms of the Capitalist system. That does not make him a "Liberation Theologist."

And he has spoken out against trickle down economics.... Materialism.... Environment change... Greed... Inequality... But wait thats going beyond , "the mission of the Church is to guide people to heaven in Christ's stead through good council on moral conduct. "....
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All of which are simply his opinions, not Church policy. None of which are necessarily indicative of "Liberation Theology," or support for Socialism, in and of themselves either.

Oh ****.. The Church is speaking about more than "the mission of the Church is to guide people to heaven in Christ's stead through good council on moral conduct. "!
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Quote the precise sentence where that is stated.
 
Gathomas88 said:
I accuse you of shoddy debating practices, because you can't seem to actually a cite a source properly.
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This is a debate forum not a require MLA or Chicago cited essay.....

Would a college professor let you get away with throwing up a naked URL in a term paper, with no other form of identification?
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So don't do it here. It's simple laziness, nothing more.
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No?
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This is a debate forum not a require MLA or Chicago cited essay.....



So don't do it here. It's simple laziness, nothing more.
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This is all coming from the guy that resorted to a logical falcy to descredient a source...

In other words, you are ignorant of what "Liberation Theology" actually is. :roll:
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You accuse of it being Marxist... You ****ing kidding me? An religious outlook on the wold upholding an atheist socio-economic philosophy :lamo

Again, so called "Liberation Theologians" try to incorporate Marxist ideological structures into Church dogma, and were widely active in supporting "Revolutionary" Marxist insurgencies throughout Latin America during the 1970s, 1980s, and even the 1990s. That's precisely why the Church has historically opposed them.
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No. No. No. No. No. Marxism is a inherent view of the world that analysis the capitalist system as a scientific structure.. It says that as a theory people are inherently exploited by system of capitalism and that at some point we will advance from feudalism to capitalism then from capitalism to socialism and them from socialism to communism. It rejects RELIGION as exploitation, it rejects the capitalist system as EXPLOITATION, it upholds that wage slavery is exploitation that alienates people from their work and from one another. Please save this "inserting marxism into religion" bull****.

Because Liberation Theology is "Socialism," and so too is Bernie Sanders a "Socialist." You are accusing the Pope of being overtly in league with both, and being opposed to Capitalism.
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Being opposed to the consequences of capitalism does not make one socialist. Also its important to note that being socialist does not make one a Marxist like you are accusing.

That simply is not the case.
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And again I never said it was.

Liberation Theology is less than fifty years old, and was absolutely savaged by a Church commission under then Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict) in the 1980s for blatantly being "Catholic Marxism."
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And this means Pope Francis cant be a liberation theologist?

Again, you don't seem to know what "Liberation Theology" actually is.
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So its not this?: ""Its a movement/practice in the Catholic-Christian faith that focuses mainly on the poor and the oppressed. It calls on the church and society as a whole to work toward a just society and more equal society through social and political change. It calls on the Church to align themselves with the working class and the poor and for the church to ally themselves with movements that call on bringing about a more equal and just society.""


Again, all you have demonstrated is that the Pope has some criticisms of the Capitalist system. That does not make him a "Liberation Theologist."
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I never said that is just what makes him a liberation theologist... See above

All of which are simply his opinions, not Church policy. None of which are necessarily indicative of "Liberation Theology," or support for Socialism, in and of themselves either.
Oh my ****ing god. Do you not understand what my argument is here?


QUote the precise sentence where that is stated.
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Uhh lets think here. The Church on other subjects such as ****ing abortion....
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TheDemSocialist said:
This is a debate forum not a require MLA or Chicago cited essay.....

This is a debate forum not a require MLA or Chicago cited essay.....

This is all coming from the guy that resorted to a logical falcy to descredient a source...
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Don't expect people to actually know what you're talking about then. :shrug:

Expecting people to jump through all kinds of crazy hoops to understand your arguments, just because you can't be arsed to source properly, is nothing less than sheer laziness.

You accuse of it being Marxist... You ****ing kidding me? An religious outlook on the wold upholding an atheist socio-economic philosophy :lamo
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Aaaaaannnd again, why do you think the Church opposed it?

Helping the poor is fine and all, but sidling up to Red Communists who are only going to want you "purged" in the long-run is an incredibly stupid way to do it.

No. No. No. No. No. Marxism is a inherent view of the world that analysis the capitalist system as a scientific structure.. It says that as a theory people are inherently exploited by system of capitalism and that at some point we will advance from feudalism to capitalism then from capitalism to socialism and them from socialism to communism. It rejects RELIGION as exploitation, it rejects the capitalist system as EXPLOITATION, it upholds that wage slavery is exploitation that alienates people from their work and from one another. Please save this "inserting marxism into religion" bull****.
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And? The only difference between that and "Liberation Theology" is that Liberation Theologists basically try and pretend like the bolded section doesn't exist.

Seriously, dude. Why in the Hell do you think it's called "Liberation" theology to begin with? It's called that because it adopts the Marxist idea that the lower classes need to rise up and "liberate" themselves from the existing economic and political order. It simply happens to try to justify that position using Catholic theology, as well as Marxist scientific reasoning.

That doesn't work for a number of reasons, one of which being that the Catholic Church itself is actually a part of that "order" from which people supposedly need to "liberate" themselves.

Being opposed to the consequences of capitalism does not make one socialist. Also its important to note that being socialist does not make one a Marxist like you are accusing.
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In other words, you're being anal retentive about terminology, and missing the "forest for the trees" as such. :roll:

And this means Pope Francis cant be a liberation theologist?
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Yup.

Uhh lets think here. The Church on other subjects such as ****ing abortion....
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It is the duty of a Christian to oppose immorality, yes.

That does not make it the Church's "mission" in the world to "create justice," however. We are not meant to be the world's police, just its conscience.
 
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TheDemSocialist said:
So you literally what those words. So ****ing dull.
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If you're too simple minded to ubderstnD more complicated explanations, then yes, I would like you to actually support your statements.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Cease the snarkiness and personal attacks or consequences will occur.
 
Gathomas88 said:
It is the duty of a Christian to oppose immorality, yes.

That does not make it the Church's "mission" in the world to "create justice," however. We are not meant to be the world's police, just its conscience.
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A point worth pondering, and thank you.
 
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