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Murders, shootings soar in Chicago

What so called LIBERAL IDEALS are you talking about? What so called LIBERAL IDEALS of mine are you referring to?

Chicago is Chicago. The other places are not Chicago.

Why are you ignoring the Lott statements and the reality that he has been proven wrong on that and in turn a major pillar of the gun lobby supporters has been destroyed and shown to have no credibility with the Chicago statistics of increasing crime at a time when guns have been easier to get and the expansion of the CCW permit which he notes is going to decrease crime.

But Lott is proven wrong. Why are you ignoring that part of my post?

You ignore the gigantic change in policing and focus on guns, at least you are consistent in blaming guns for everything. Now what you need to do to prove your point is find out how many of the murders in Chicago are legal gun owners of the weapon they used to kill someone. Go ahead.
 
You ignore the gigantic change in policing and focus on guns, at least you are consistent in blaming guns for everything. Now what you need to do to prove your point is find out how many of the murders in Chicago are legal gun owners of the weapon they used to kill someone. Go ahead.

I have not blamed guns here for anything. But feel free to quote me on that.
 
Well, I'd say that when cities with strict gun control like Chicago and DC have higher murder rates than cities without such controls, then we can clearly state that liberal ideals regarding those laws are wrong.

I ask you again - what so called liberal idea are you talking about and why are you attaching them to my post or my argument?
 
I did not realize there were no guns in Chicago. Interesting.

btw - are you aware of this?

Chicago gun ban ruled unconstitutional - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

and there is this

Rauner OKs changes to concealed carry law as state gun debate continues - Chicago Tribune

and this

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/201...ed-by-police-every-22-minutes-chicago-top-cop


it seems your claim is to what you think it is.

and - its not how it is working out for me that matters. Its how it is working out for the people of Chicago.

Since the unconstitutional ruling , and since the expansion of CCW permits we have had more crime and more murders. And that runs contrary to everything we have heard from the gun lobby supporters that more guns does not mean more crime. Here is evidence of that

Interview with John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime



Chicago is disproving this so called experts contention that has been swallowed whole by the gun lobby supporters.
So why is this happening even though there are more guns now readily available.


90% of the shooting are gang on gang. So...what does a legal gun carrier have to do with gang violence?

What the law allows, is for lawful citizen to defend themselves, nothing more.

Relating gang violence to law abiding citizens is way out there.
 
Point is poverty is not the driver for crime.
That isn't a point, it is an attempt to deny an observation made since Aristotle. You didn't counter the point, in fact you admitted from the start that the crime levels in Oak Park were lower that the east side and you blamed it on non-existent "financial walls". You were half right though, the crime level difference is a matter of finances, aka economic levels, aka the economic spectrum from poverty to wealth.
 
They find a way. They work their cross country by doing day labor, just like my grandmother's family when they moved from Arkansas to Colorado in a wagon (sharing the road with early cars). If you really want to do it, you'll find a way to do it. The problem is we've made it so much easier to stay in poverty and not work to get out of it. People like yourself who can only focus on the problem and not the solution, who keep telling people that they are stuck where they are are a huge part of the problem as well.
Sure, my observing the obvious, that economic mobility has declined and that inner city black families who don't own a car can't suddenly pick up and move cross country, is me causing "part of the problem". It is so incredibly stupid to ignore reality....and then blame the messenger. But then I nearly always find your post vapid beyond belief.
 
I have not blamed guns here for anything. But feel free to quote me on that.

Playing stupid isn't going to get you anywhere. You have not stated it outright you have implied the hell out of it.

Now, if you want to imply something then run away as soon as you asked for proof, maybe you shouldn't make implications you can't prove.

Edit: Since you cant seem to keep your accusations/lies together in your head here:

and - its not how it is working out for me that matters. Its how it is working out for the people of Chicago.

Since the unconstitutional ruling , and since the expansion of CCW permits we have had more crime and more murders. And that runs contrary to everything we have heard from the gun lobby supporters that more guns does not mean more crime. Here is evidence of that

Interview with John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime



Chicago is disproving this so called experts contention that has been swallowed whole by the gun lobby supporters.
So why is this happening even though there are more guns now readily available.
 
I did not realize there were no guns in Chicago. Interesting.
Of course there were guns in Chicago prior to SCOTUS striking down their ban. But, Chicago was a gun free zone by law. Of course, that made it a soft target for criminals and nutters, like a school zone or theater writ large. That's the fundamental problem of GFZs: they assure that precisely the people you want to have guns, the law-abiding, don't have them. Inevitable tragedy ensues.
Since the unconstitutional ruling , and since the expansion of CCW permits we have had more crime and more murders. And that runs contrary to everything we have heard from the gun lobby supporters that more guns does not mean more crime.
Let's take this point-by-point.

1. First of all, it was NOT an unconstitional ruling. Rather, it overturned a century of unconstitional precedent that relegated the 2A to second class "right" status: you have the right in theory, but the state can prevent you from exercising it outright (handgun or other bans) or by putting onerous conditions (licensing, registration requirements) on it. If anything, the ruling was tepid, allowing the onerous conditionals while only striking down outright bans. That it took so long to admit "shall not be infringed" means bans are unconstitional is astounding.

2. There are very few CHL holders in Chicago. The latest Illinois Concealed Carry statistics by county

Chicago is in Cook County. It has the second lowest rate in Illinois, at a paltry 0.6% of the population. The national average is roughly 3% (11 million out of 320 million). So, in an area with much higher crime than average, it has over 5x lower adoption rate.

3. Why is this, and why has going from 0% to 0.5% had no effect on crime? The answer to these questions are the same: costs. In order to get a CHL in Illinois, the total cost is at least $400, not counting work time loss, transportation, internet costs or the purchase of a gun and ammo.

The requirements for a CHL in Illinois are here: https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/CCL.aspx. If you click on the requirements link, you get a popup (not linkable that I can see on my tablet) listing them. Copying and pasting:

●16 hours of Concealed Carry firearms training provided by an ISP approved Instructor.

This is two 8 hour days. I've looked around, and the cheapest I could find was $140/day, which includes range fees. That's $280, but let's say a good shopper who knows the area could find it for $250.

●Electronic Copy of my training certificate(s). You will be required to upload your electronic certificate during the application process.

say included in training fee above, so cost $0. However, if one does not have an internet connection, that means a trip to an internet cafe.

●An Illinois State Police User ID and Password

I assume this is free. $0

●A Valid Driver’s License or State Identification card.

$20. Apply for a New Illinois Identification Card | DMV.org

●A valid FOID card unless in the process of getting a valid FOID card.

FOID stands for "Firearm Owners Identification". To legally own any type of firearm or ammunition in Illinois, you need https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/FOID.aspx
●A Valid Driver’s License or State Identification card.
●A head and shoulder electronic photograph taken within the last 30 days.
●$10.00 payable with a credit card or electronic check.
Requiring this is problematic, as one could have a CHL permit without owning a gun, just as one could have a driver license without owning a car. I'm going to be super generous and assume the photograph is covered by the state ID above or done as part of the classes. Either way, $0. However, the $10 FOID fee still applies.

●A head and shoulder electronic photograph taken within the last 30 days.Be able to provide the last ten years of residency.

Assume already covered.

●Fingerprints – Electronic fingerprints will expedite your application!

The cheapest I could find was $9 for black ink, not electronic. LiveScan Fingerprinting Chicago.

●$150.00 payable with a credit card or electronic check.

So, that totals $250 (min) + $20 + $10 + $9 (min) + $150 = $439. That excludes a bunch of costs, and is the bare minimum to get a CHL, not including actually purchasing a handgun or ammo. So, that $439 only gets you the legal right to CC in Illinois. I'm a bit puzzled how anyone can contend that such a barrier isn't an infringement to a right. Imagine if a "free speech license" cost as much, and required prior vetting and state approval. Or an abortion. So, it's fairly obvious that the law-abiding poor are all but excluded from this program, precisely the people who need it most.
 
Well, I'd say that when cities with strict gun control like Chicago and DC have higher murder rates than cities without such controls, then we can clearly state that liberal ideals regarding those laws are wrong.
The gun laws were a response to the past higher gun homicides, to try to cause a decline in the number of guns on the street, to cause a decline in gun homicides. You have the history....and understanding....backwards, and you do this often.
 
I ask you again - what so called liberal idea are you talking about and why are you attaching them to my post or my argument?

Gun control: laws aimed at restricting legal ownership.
 
Of course there were guns in Chicago prior to SCOTUS striking down their ban. But, Chicago was a gun free zone by law. Of course, that made it a soft target for criminals and nutters, like a school zone or theater writ large. That's the fundamental problem of GFZs: they assure that precisely the people you want to have guns, the law-abiding, don't have them. Inevitable tragedy ensues.

Let's take this point-by-point.

1. First of all, it was NOT an unconstitional ruling. Rather, it overturned a century of unconstitional precedent that relegated the 2A to second class "right" status: you have the right in theory, but the state can prevent you from exercising it outright (handgun or other bans) or by putting onerous conditions (licensing, registration requirements) on it. If anything, the ruling was tepid, allowing the onerous conditionals while only striking down outright bans. That it took so long to admit "shall not be infringed" means bans are unconstitional is astounding.

2. There are very few CHL holders in Chicago. The latest Illinois Concealed Carry statistics by county

Chicago is in Cook County. It has the second lowest rate in Illinois, at a paltry 0.6% of the population. The national average is roughly 3% (11 million out of 320 million). So, in an area with much higher crime than average, it has over 5x lower adoption rate.

3. Why is this, and why has going from 0% to 0.5% had no effect on crime? The answer to these questions are the same: costs. In order to get a CHL in Illinois, the total cost is at least $400, not counting work time loss, transportation, internet costs or the purchase of a gun and ammo.

The requirements for a CHL in Illinois are here: https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/CCL.aspx. If you click on the requirements link, you get a popup (not linkable that I can see on my tablet) listing them. Copying and pasting:

●16 hours of Concealed Carry firearms training provided by an ISP approved Instructor.

This is two 8 hour days. I've looked around, and the cheapest I could find was $140/day, which includes range fees. That's $280, but let's say a good shopper who knows the area could find it for $250.

●Electronic Copy of my training certificate(s). You will be required to upload your electronic certificate during the application process.

say included in training fee above, so cost $0. However, if one does not have an internet connection, that means a trip to an internet cafe.

●An Illinois State Police User ID and Password

I assume this is free. $0

●A Valid Driver’s License or State Identification card.

$20. Apply for a New Illinois Identification Card | DMV.org

●A valid FOID card unless in the process of getting a valid FOID card.

FOID stands for "Firearm Owners Identification". To legally own any type of firearm or ammunition in Illinois, you need https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/FOID.aspx

Requiring this is problematic, as one could have a CHL permit without owning a gun, just as one could have a driver license without owning a car. I'm going to be super generous and assume the photograph is covered by the state ID above or done as part of the classes. Either way, $0. However, the $10 FOID fee still applies.

●A head and shoulder electronic photograph taken within the last 30 days.Be able to provide the last ten years of residency.

Assume already covered.

●Fingerprints – Electronic fingerprints will expedite your application!

The cheapest I could find was $9 for black ink, not electronic. LiveScan Fingerprinting Chicago.

●$150.00 payable with a credit card or electronic check.

So, that totals $250 (min) + $20 + $10 + $9 (min) + $150 = $439. That excludes a bunch of costs, and is the bare minimum to get a CHL, not including actually purchasing a handgun or ammo. So, that $439 only gets you the legal right to CC in Illinois. I'm a bit puzzled how anyone can contend that such a barrier isn't an infringement to a right. Imagine if a "free speech license" cost as much, and required prior vetting and state approval. Or an abortion. So, it's fairly obvious that the law-abiding poor are all but excluded from this program, precisely the people who need it most.

Thank you for your reply. I looked over your data. One thing however is not clear to me. If guns are so readily available in Chicago - regardless of how they are obtained - why then are not the claims of some coming to pass that more guns means a safer society and more guns do not contribute to more crime?

Instead, we appear to have the opposite occurring.
 
Gun control: laws aimed at restricting legal ownership.

I have never advocated denying any citizen their right to keep and bear arms. In fact, I have even gone further than some gun supporters here and have advocated that a person get their rights in full restated the day their finish their legal obligation if they are a past criminal. Some here who claim to support what they call "gun rights" don't even support that. So I have no idea what you mean by this or why you are applying it to me.
 
it is another type of terrorism in the country and it should be controlled now.
 
Thank you for your reply. I looked over your data. One thing however is not clear to me. If guns are so readily available in Chicago - regardless of how they are obtained - why then are not the claims of some coming to pass that more guns means a safer society and more guns do not contribute to more crime?

Instead, we appear to have the opposite occurring.

Go back to the change in policing methodology and coverage as you were told previously.
 
Thank you for your reply. I looked over your data. One thing however is not clear to me. If guns are so readily available in Chicago - regardless of how they are obtained - why then are not the claims of some coming to pass that more guns means a safer society and more guns do not contribute to more crime?

Instead, we appear to have the opposite occurring.
Prior to the lifting of the ban, law-abiding citizens could not own handguns in Chicago. If they had a handgun, they were breaking the law, which is contrary to being law-abiding. After the ban was nominally lifted, the cost of legally CC in Chicago put it out of reach for the law-abiding poor, precisely the people who are affected most by crime. The low adoption rates, 5x lower than national average, gife indication that this is what is happening: those most victimized by crime have a high barrier to legally CCing, bare minimimum $439 as shown above.
 
The problem is that the majority of the guns used in crimes here are purchased legally by people with no criminal records and then sold on the street to criminals who then turn around and use them to kill people.

Evidence suggests the 'majority' were purchased by friends and family members. The second largest source is stolen firearms.
 
Go back to the change in policing methodology and coverage as you were told previously.

And what would I be looking for in that effort and what would I be expected to discover after doing that?
 
Prior to the lifting of the ban, law-abiding citizens could not own handguns in Chicago. If they had a handgun, they were breaking the law, which is contrary to being law-abiding. After the ban was nominally lifted, the cost of legally CC in Chicago put it out of reach for the law-abiding poor, precisely the people who are affected most by crime. The low adoption rates, 5x lower than national average, gife indication that this is what is happening: those most victimized by crime have a high barrier to legally CCing, bare minimimum $439 as shown above.
Increasing the level of gun ownership in high poverty areas will result in much higher levels of gun homicide since higher poverty causes a condition where one fears for ones life at much greater levels. Violence escalates much quicker and at greater rates, adding more weapons with greater lethality will make the level of homicides worse.
 
And what would I be looking for in that effort and what would I be expected to discover after doing that?

Look for articles about the changes to policing approaches after Ferguson and Baltimore.
 
Increasing the level of gun ownership in high poverty areas will result in much higher levels of gun homicide since higher poverty causes a condition where one fears for ones life at much greater levels. Violence escalates much quicker and at greater rates, adding more weapons with greater lethality will make the level of homicides worse.
Only if you assume the poor are incapable of being law-abiding or exercising sound judgement. While one could make this argument, using their poverty as proof, I reject the notion that individuals should have their rights curtailed based on economic status. Having onerous and expensive licensing conditions does exactly that, just as it would if a "speech license" or "abortion license" were required prior to exercising either of those rights.
 
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Look for articles about the changes to policing approaches after Ferguson and Baltimore.

And why would I be interested in that and what would you expect they would prove - at least in your estimation?
 
And why would I be interested in that and what would you expect they would prove - at least in your estimation?

That the current policing logistics are resulting in less patrol coverage.
 
Only if you assume the poor are incapable of being law-abiding or exercising sound judgement.
No, this is not a theoretical exercise, it is an observable fact. The greater the level of poverty, the more often the encounters you have with others will be violent, it is multiplied by population density. It causes higher levels of anxiety, it results in greater escalation of violence even when encounters are not life threatening. It is much the same as PTSD, exposure to a lifetime of higher violence and crime causes much greater stress levels and changes how a person reacts to perceived threats, whether they are real or not.
While one could make thus argument
Thus?
using their poverty as proof, I reject the notion that individuals should have their rights curtailed based on economic status.
It wasn't a matter of rights, it is an argument of not adding MORE weapons with greater lethality into an already highly stressed system.
Having onerous and expensive licensing conditions does exactly that, just as it would if a "speech license" or "abortion license" were required prior to exercising either of those rights.
And this is the typical failure of gun nutters, they refuse to understand a socioeconomic condition and believe that more guns always helps.

You have proven to me that trying to get you to listen to reason based on observation is pointless.
 
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