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Obama has said David Cameron allowed Libya to become a 's*** show'

It proves that the US fired the first shots. Have you been following the debate?

Are you saying that the US started the armed allied intervention in Libya? That first shot?
 
I supplied the link earlier.

I am asking a simple direct question, please provide a simple direct answer?
finebead said:
Are you saying that the US started the armed allied intervention in Libya? That first shot?
In essence, I don't think the article provides support for the point you are trying to make, that the US under Obama were the primary leaders in the Libya civil war.

Please answer my question first, and show how it supports your contention that the US led the allied military intervention in Libya. I don't believe you have done that. I believe I have shown with my Rand Corp report that England and France led the effort to support the rebels to overthrow Gaddafi, if you've been following the thread, my links are earlier in the thread.
 
It's not surprising that someone with a lack of character, like Barrack Obama, would try to weasel out of his earlier decisions and cast the blame elsewhere, as in Iraq, but what's astounding is that there are those who will remain loyalists. The first shot was fired by the US.

"A U.S. Predator drone operated from a base near Las Vegas[8] fired the first missiles at the convoy, hitting its target about 3 kilometres (2 mi) west of Sirte. Moments later, French Air Force Rafale fighter jets continued the bombing.[10] The NATO bombing immobilized much of the convoy and killed dozens of loyalist fighters."

Of course it was a tragic mistake getting rid of Gadaffi but this weaseling around the truth really makes it all the more shameful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Muammar_Gaddafi

Grant has been unwilling to answer a simple question to clarify his contention that since the US fired the first shot, that proves Obama's leadership in the military intervention in Libya, and therefore Obama is not justified in casting blame on Cameron.

However, the quote that Grant used just above DOES NOT show the US fired any meaningful first shot, except in the sortie quoted above, which occurred LATE in the conflict. It was just one of many sorties flown by many nations. The way Grant states it, without qualification, he indicates it was the first shot of the war, BUT IT WAS NOT. One cannot prove leadership in a military conflict by who fired the first shot on a sortie MONTHS into the conflict, at that point it does not make a difference.

I have already shown that France fired the first shot of the military intervention:
Operation Odyssey Dawn was the U.S. code name[Note 1] for the American role in the international military operation in Libya to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973[11][12][13][14][15] during the initial period of 19–31 March 2011, which continued afterwards under NATO command as Operation Unified Protector. The initial operation implemented a no-fly zone that was proposed during the Libyan Civil War to prevent government forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi from carrying out air attacks on Anti-Gaddafi forces. On 19 March 2011, several countries prepared to take immediate military action at a summit in Paris.[16] Operations commenced on the same day with a strike by French fighter jets, then U.S. and UK forces conducting strikes from ships and submarines via 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles and air assets bombing Gaddafi forces near Benghazi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Odyssey_Dawn

There you have it folks, the French fired the first shots, and Grants point is defeated.
 
Even the British admit that Cameron is to blame for failing to do more to stabilize Libya, so clearly Obama is correct to blame Cameron as the British did in 2015:

Official figures show that the eight-month military intervention unleashed by David Cameron in support of rebels fighting Colonel Gadaffi’s regime cost £320 million. But efforts to stabilise the country following Gaddafi’s death and the collapse of his government have amounted to just £25m, which has failed to prevent Libya from sliding into chaos.

The UK bombing campaign against Libya began in March 2011 as part of a multi-national NATO action brought in to enforce a no fly zone established by a United Nations resolution.


The military intervention lasted until October that year and saw RAF jets and Apache helicopters attack military targets including armoured vehicles, ammunitions dumps, weapons and military installations.

A flotilla of Royal Navy ships was also sent to the Mediterranean, while it has been rumoured that special forces such as the SAS and SBS were deployed on the ground to co-ordinate airstrikes.


However, documents released from Westminster show the final figure was £320m.

The same files also show that after the conflict came to a close £25 million was given by the UK government in stabilisation assistance to the Libyan authorities.

In the meantime Libya has fragmented into lawlessness, with the control of the country split between four disparate fighting groups, including the democratically elected Council of Deputies, the rival Islamist government of the new General National Congress in Tripoli, Islamist revolutionaries in Benghazi and fighters from Daesh.

Libya is also awash with weapons after the conflict, and many areas are plagued by militias who did not disarm after the fall of Gaddafi.

The revelation of the cost of the Libya conflict and the relative scarcity of funds to rebuild the country follows serious concerns raised by the SNP over the UK’s current involvement in Syria, where RAF pilots have been working with foreign forces to attack Daesh despite a vote against launching military action against targets in the Middle Eastern country in the House of Commons two years ago.

North East Fife MP Stephen Gethins said that lessons should be learned from the failure to create a stable future for Libya following the bombing campaign.

He said: “These figures are eye-watering. The amount of money the UK government will spend bombing a country dwarves the re-building programme thirteen to one.

The lessons of Libya, like Iraq, is that you cannot just bomb somewhere and move on.
UK government spent 13 times more bombing Libya than on rebuilding post war (From Herald Scotland)

England and France were the leaders as I previously posted, and they both failed to provide sufficient support to Libya after the war, clearly demonstrated by their own reporting just above. Yet again:

28 February 2011: British Prime Minister David Cameron proposed the idea of a no-fly zone to prevent Gaddafi from "airlifting mercenaries" and "using his military aeroplanes and armoured helicopters against civilians."
1 March 2011: The US Senate unanimously passed non-binding Senate resolution S.RES.85 urging the United Nations Security Council to impose a Libyan no-fly zone
10 March 2011: France recognized the Libyan NTC as the legitimate government of Libya soon after Sarkozy met with them in Paris. This meeting was arranged by Bernard-Henri Lévy.[58]
11 March 2011: Cameron joined forces with Sarkozy after Sarkozy demanded immediate action from international community for a no-fly zone against air attacks by Gaddafi.
17 March 2011: The UN Security Council, approved a no-fly zone by a vote of ten in favour, zero against, and five abstentions,
19 March 2011: French forces began the military intervention in Libya, later joined by coalition forces with strikes against armoured units south of Benghazi
24 March 2011: In telephone negotiations, French foreign minister Alain Juppé agreed to let NATO take over all military operations

Initial NATO planning for a possible no-fly zone took place in late February and early March,[79] especially by NATO members France and the United Kingdom.[80] France and the UK were early supporters of a no-fly zone and had sufficient airpower to impose a no-fly zone over the rebel-held areas, although they might need additional assistance for a more extensive exclusion zone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

Your position that the US fired the first shot is WRONG. And the Brits themselves have demonstrated that Cameron failed to provide sufficient support to Libya after the conflict, confirming Obama's criticism of Cameron.
 
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