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Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1m people

The U.S. should condition the aid needed to fix this dam on the expulsion of all ISIS jihadists by the residents of Mosul, who stand to lose the most if it breaks. It might be a way to take the city away from ISIS without using troops. A few thousand jihadists with light arms could never have stayed in control of a city of a million people this long, unless many of the residents--those people we are led to believe are innocent victims--were willingly letting them shelter there. Let them force the lice out into open country, where we can exterminate them from the air. Most Muslims in Iraq and other countries in that region hate Americans because we are infidels, even if they are clever enough to smile to our faces, and this country should be calculating and clear-headed in all its dealings with them. We should not give them anything, unless it is designed to further U.S. interests.
 
matchlight said:
The U.S. should condition the aid needed to fix this dam on the expulsion of all ISIS jihadists by the residents of Mosul, who stand to lose the most if it breaks. It might be a way to take the city away from ISIS without using troops. A few thousand jihadists with light arms could never have stayed in control of a city of a million people this long, unless many of the residents--those people we are led to believe are innocent victims--were willingly letting them shelter there. Let them force the lice out into open country, where we can exterminate them from the air. Most Muslims in Iraq and other countries in that region hate Americans because we are infidels, even if they are clever enough to smile to our faces, and this country should be calculating and clear-headed in all its dealings with them. We should not give them anything, unless it is designed to further U.S. interests.
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I never considered that, but it's good thinking.
 
imagep said:
Why would the US be "on the hook"?

this isn't an American problem.
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imagep said:
Iraq better get busy fixing this thing. It's not like they don't have any oil revenue.
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Help me out a minute if you will.

Those quotes you picked, I am on your side far more than those whom I was debating with (where you got those quotes in the first place.) What are you trying to convince me of?
 
MadLib said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that "letting the dam deteriorate until it becomes a danger to our lives" wasn't a stance taken by any candidate. It's more or less taken for granted that politicians will work to maintain infrastructure and public safety.
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In Iraq? I am sure no candidate in Iraq cared.

MadLib said:
The current Iraqi government has been fighting fiercely against ISIS, and their new prime minister has been working to deescalate sectarian tensions and reduce corruption. I'm sorry you're fine with millions of people having their lives destroyed because you have some orientalist vendetta against the people of Iraq.
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Don't care. The Iraqi military ran from ISIS when it mattered. That included the early days when there was fighting for the dam and the city of Mosul. You are full of crap about the new PM. Haider al-Abadi reign has been just as bad. Iraq has been slowly splitting into 3 and has accelerated under al-Abadi.

Orientalist vendetta? Seriously? You are gonna try and say I am a racist? I wouldn't help any Foreign Government fix a problem they ignored. Why would I? We have our own infrastructure problems.


MadLib said:
Saddam was the reason the dam is a failure in the first place. He valued speed over quality, hence the faulty engineering.
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That's actually not true. It was the Germany engineering/construction firm Hochtief that built the dam and went with the location and the idea of construction.
 
imagep said:
Then they wouldn't agree to our requirements to stay, and we left. At the time we left, they claimed they no longer needed our help.

.
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We didn't leave. We still have thousands of troops there, including special forces in pseudo combat roles.
 
austrianecon said:
In Iraq? I am sure no candidate in Iraq cared.
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As you point out below, even we have our own infrastructure problems. Imagine how much more difficult it is to mobilize the political capital and resources required when your entire government was wiped out and you've had to deal with endless insurgency. That corrupt officials would exploit the power vacuum is not surprising, given our policy towards the ex-Baathists..


Don't care. The Iraqi military ran from ISIS when it mattered. That included the early days when there was fighting for the dam and the city of Mosul.
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The ISF's behavior during ISIS' offensives was inexcusable, but it's worth keeping in mind that we had disbanded what was probably the most powerful military in the Arab world and banned any members of the ruling Baath party from politics. The war against ISIS is Iraq's first real test as an independent democracy, and so far it has dragged itself through difficult urban warfare against ISIS with decent success.
You are full of crap about the new PM. Haider al-Abadi reign has been just as bad. Iraq has been slowly splitting into 3 and has accelerated under al-Abadi.
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Abadi's made reforms to well beyond the extent that he could reasonably fear for his safety. Not only has he worked to accommodate Sunnis who were marginalized under Maliki, he also transferred the personal bodyguard armies that many officials have to the fight against ISIS. The sectarianism is mainly coming from ISIS (of course) and Kurdish warlord Masoud Barzani, who seems eager to pimp Kurdistan to Turkish interests.

Orientalist vendetta? Seriously? You are gonna try and say I am a racist? I wouldn't help any Foreign Government fix a problem they ignored. Why would I? We have our own infrastructure problems.
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That in and of itself isn't racist. Using this to assume that a majority of Iraqis are sectarian, lazy and corrupt and thus deserve to die in a flood is textbook orientalist bigotry.

That's actually not true. It was the Germany engineering/construction firm Hochtief that built the dam and went with the location and the idea of construction.
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Yes, when Saddam wanted the dam built as a personal glory project. He wasn't exactly known for protecting his own civilians or making rational decisions.
 
MadLib said:
As you point out below, even we have our own infrastructure problems. Imagine how much more difficult it is to mobilize the political capital and resources required when your entire government was wiped out and you've had to deal with endless insurgency. That corrupt officials would exploit the power vacuum is not surprising, given our policy towards the ex-Baathists..
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Can you stop excusing almost 10 years of Iraqi's not lifting a finger? Mosul Dam is basically in Kurdistan. It was one of the safest regions during the war post 2005. US even offered to pay for most of the fixes. In fact we did pay $27m to keep the thing from collapsing for the last 13 years. Under the CPA US have local officials a blank check on projects. $60b was given out in Iraq. $60b. That would have fixed the dam and gave running water, power and hospital access to everybody in Iraq. But that $60b got pissed away.

You have this grand idea that all of Iraq was in chaos. Mosul dam and other dams around Iraq were heavily protected by the US military until 2011.


MadLib said:
The ISF's behavior during ISIS' offensives was inexcusable, but it's worth keeping in mind that we had disbanded what was probably the most powerful military in the Arab world and banned any members of the ruling Baath party from politics. The war against ISIS is Iraq's first real test as an independent democracy, and so far it has dragged itself through difficult urban warfare against ISIS with decent success.
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The Iraqi Army under Saddam was not a powerful military post 1991. In 2003 Republican Guard (the "elite") were deserting, tossing their weapons and uniforms rather then fight just as it was in 1991. They were a paper tiger.

It's also worth keeping in mind, we retrained them, resupplied them and LEFT equipment (tanks, humvees and such) we used over there for them. That was $25b (officially).


MadLib said:
Abadi's made reforms to well beyond the extent that he could reasonably fear for his safety. Not only has he worked to accommodate Sunnis who were marginalized under Maliki, he also transferred the personal bodyguard armies that many officials have to the fight against ISIS. The sectarianism is mainly coming from ISIS (of course) and Kurdish warlord Masoud Barzani, who seems eager to pimp Kurdistan to Turkish interests.
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You keep thinking that. Masoud Barzani is elected by the people of Iraqi Kurdistan.



MadLib said:
That in and of itself isn't racist. Using this to assume that a majority of Iraqis are sectarian, lazy and corrupt and thus deserve to die in a flood is textbook orientalist bigotry.
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I never said such things. You are inferring that because you have no argument to counter the logical process of if they don't want to help themselves why should we help them? It also has no play because it could be Canada, Germany, UK, or European country and I'd say the same damn thing.. it's THEIR problem and they need to fix it themselves, especially after US of funding reconstruction in said country. Iraq had 8 years in which the US footed the bill to rebuild their infrastructure. 8 years and not once did they take a single warning serious from the US Government about the problems with the Mosul Dam. Not once.




MadLib said:
Yes, when Saddam wanted the dam built as a personal glory project. He wasn't exactly known for protecting his own civilians or making rational decisions.
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Personal glory project? He built palaces for glory. The dam was built during the Iran-Iraq war as part of the Arabization process in North Iraq because the Kurds were fighting with the Iranians (KDP and the PUK). It was a jobs project.
 
Threegoofs said:
We didn't leave. We still have thousands of troops there, including special forces in pseudo combat roles.
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But only to aid them, not to overthrow or control them.
 
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