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Apple Resisting FBI Demand That the Crack the IPhone

100% support Apple.

Give these SOBs an inch and they'll take a mile.
 
JoeTrumps said:
right. so the next time(and it will happen) a terrorists kills a bunch of American's and the government want's the phone intel and apple tells them to F-themselves, you will agree and ask apple be given a gold star.
and you wonder why Trump has a good shot at being President.
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**** Trump, as he is a bullying moron.

Our rights as Americans are not limited by the supposed fear of terrorism.

Many have died in our history to preserve the rights that we have in the COTUS.

Only spineless fools want to cower in perceived fear at the threat of terrorism to throw away our rights.

Only blind fools trust the government's bull**** logic in wanting a backdoor into Apple's, and my, future security.
 
ludin said:
I am with apple up until a court order.

they have been ordered by the court to unlock the phone.
at this point they have no choice but to comply unless they appeal which it looks like they are doing.
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Lawfully I think you are right.

Morally I believe that the courts are wrong.

We are talking about an industry that moves forward at an unprecedented speed. I simply don't trust the lawmakers right now to make good, informed decisions about it. Not through any fault of their own, just simply because there are developments happening in technology and security every day and these decisions could have far, far reaching impacts.

What I find particularly interesting about this topic of digital security vs surveillance is that it seems to flip party lines as to the whole security vs liberty debate.
 
Apple will fold, sooner or later, but I admire them for at least taking a stand.

The SB shooters were described by 2 different witnesses as athletic looking white males. Nobody described them as a husband and wife team. SB is a false flag.

This theme of "we could not know what they were up to because their phone was encrypted" was introduced pretty early on by the authorities. Their ultimate goal is to get the government a back door into encrypted phones, nothing more. The same theme was mentioned recently regarding one of the "terrorist attacks" in Europe, I think Paris.

The authorities will lie their way to eliminating encryption standards.
 
SMTA said:
More lies from the resident America hater.
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And Google is not an American company? Microsoft? How about Oracle?

Apple's security has been much better than other manufacturers - hence their profit market share of 95%.
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LOL Apples profit market share is due to massive margins and great marketing and hype. Has absolutely nothing to do with security. Look at the iPad Pro... a big iPad and huge turd of a machine and yet the loyal fans bought it in droves. Same with the iWatch.. utter crap and yet sold quite well (relative to others). Apple is about lifestyle and marketing. Actual tech and usability come second and security is dead last.

Tell me.. why did it take Apple so long go from 4 digit passcodes to 4+?

By protecting their source code and security, they protect their user's privacy.
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Yes that is one argument, but another argument is that open source is more secure because of more eyes on the code. On top of that, your version requires you trust Apple...Considering their controlling nature and history, then I am not so sure I could do that. I barely trust Microsoft and Google and they have far better track records on security.

Regarding the celebrity photos, you must be unaware that it was the cloud storage that was hacked, not individual devices.
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Did I say it was individual devices? No. I even pointed out the most likely culprit was ****ty security in the iCloud service... something Apple still denies or did you miss that part? The official stance is still that people had poor passwords.

Your baseless crying about poor Apple security is bogus - if it were true, consumers would be voting with their feet.
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No they wont lol. Get real. Apple is almost untouchable. The Frapping did nothing, the 2 year security breach in Safari did nothing but punish others...Apple is like teflon for god sake. Any other company that had the same problems would have consumers voting with their feet.. not Apple. Apples marketing is brilliant as we see in this case and many others and many in the media are willing contributors. Look at the Verge.. or iVerge as many call it.. page up and down on defending Apple. Look at the antennagate scandal.. any other company would take a massive hit in customers and image... Apple gave away a free plastic cover and all was just fine ... seriously? It was a massive design flaw lol! All other companies would have been forced into a recall and to fix the design flaw.. not Apple!

You just hate Apple because it is a very successful American corporation who owns the smartphone market.
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LOL the utter bull**** in that comment. I use Microsoft and Google services.... are they not successful and American? Hell Google is the largest company on the planet! I am watching Netflix atm.. is that not American? Oh someone posted on Facebook.. American no?

Your personal attack against me is nothing but a lame attempt to try to deflect from a very serious issue most people either ignore or dont know about when it comes to Apple.
 
Nilly said:
Lawfully I think you are right.

Morally I believe that the courts are wrong.

We are talking about an industry that moves forward at an unprecedented speed. I simply don't trust the lawmakers right now to make good, informed decisions about it. Not through any fault of their own, just simply because there are developments happening in technology and security every day and these decisions could have far, far reaching impacts.

What I find particularly interesting about this topic of digital security vs surveillance is that it seems to flip party lines as to the whole security vs liberty debate.
Click to expand...

IANAL, but I think that the problem is much deeper than a court order.

In order for Apple to get access to this one iPhone, they will have to develop code, or a back door per se, that will work on all other Apple iPhones.

Therein lies the rub - it is not just the security of this one Apple smartphone, but all Apple smartphones.

The government is only marginally intelligent, but Apple has told them no before when asked for access.

This is a way to get Apple to give them carte blanche access to their products under the guise of 'safety for all of America', to which I call bull****.

Again, an inherent fear of overreaching government is exactly why our COTUS and governmental structure was designed with checks and balances, and supreme protection for it's citizens.

I trust our founder's fear of invasive government.
 
PeteEU said:
And Google is not an American company? Microsoft? How about Oracle?



LOL Apples profit market share is due to massive margins and great marketing and hype. Has absolutely nothing to do with security. Look at the iPad Pro... a big iPad and huge turd of a machine and yet the loyal fans bought it in droves. Same with the iWatch.. utter crap and yet sold quite well (relative to others). Apple is about lifestyle and marketing. Actual tech and usability come second and security is dead last.

Tell me.. why did it take Apple so long go from 4 digit passcodes to 4+?



Yes that is one argument, but another argument is that open source is more secure because of more eyes on the code. On top of that, your version requires you trust Apple...Considering their controlling nature and history, then I am not so sure I could do that. I barely trust Microsoft and Google and they have far better track records on security.



Did I say it was individual devices? No. I even pointed out the most likely culprit was ****ty security in the iCloud service... something Apple still denies or did you miss that part? The official stance is still that people had poor passwords.



No they wont lol. Get real. Apple is almost untouchable. The Frapping did nothing, the 2 year security breach in Safari did nothing but punish others...Apple is like teflon for god sake. Any other company that had the same problems would have consumers voting with their feet.. not Apple. Apples marketing is brilliant as we see in this case and many others and many in the media are willing contributors. Look at the Verge.. or iVerge as many call it.. page up and down on defending Apple. Look at the antennagate scandal.. any other company would take a massive hit in customers and image... Apple gave away a free plastic cover and all was just fine ... seriously? It was a massive design flaw lol! All other companies would have been forced into a recall and to fix the design flaw.. not Apple!



LOL the utter bull**** in that comment. I use Microsoft and Google services.... are they not successful and American? Hell Google is the largest company on the planet! I am watching Netflix atm.. is that not American? Oh someone posted on Facebook.. American no?

Your personal attack against me is nothing but a lame attempt to try to deflect from a very serious issue most people either ignore or dont know about when it comes to Apple.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see that cloak of hypocrisy is worn tightly.
 
SMTA said:
IANAL, but I think that the problem is much deeper than a court order.

In order for Apple to get access to this one iPhone, they will have to develop code, or a back door per se, that will work on all other Apple iPhones.

Therein lies the rub - it is not just the security of this one Apple smartphone, but all Apple smartphones.

The government is only marginally intelligent, but Apple has told them no before when asked for access.

This is a way to get Apple to give them carte blanche access to their products under the guise of 'safety for all of America', to which I call bull****.

Again, an inherent fear of overreaching government is exactly why our COTUS and governmental structure was designed with checks and balances, and supreme protection for it's citizens.

I trust our founder's fear of invasive government.
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So technically, we think apple can make the code work on only one iPhone.

For firmware to be installed on an iPhone, it must be digitally signed by apple using a key only they know.

From the order:

[Provide] the FBI with a signed iPhone Software file, recovery bundle, or other Software Image File (“SIF”) that can be loaded onto the SUBJECT DEVICE. The SIF will load and run from Random Access Memory (“RAM”) and will not modify the iOS on the actual phone, the user data partition or system partition on the device’s flash memory. The SIF will be coded by Apple with a unique identifier of the phone so that the SIF would only load and execute on the SUBJECT DEVICE. The SIF will be loaded via Device Firmware Upgrade (“DFU”) mode, recovery mode, or other applicable mode available to the FBI. Once active on the SUBJECT DEVICE, the SIF will accomplish the three functions specified in paragraph 2. The SIF will be loaded on the SUBJECT DEVICE at either a government facility, or alternatively, at an Apple facility; if the latter, Apple shall provide the government with remote access to the SUBJECT DEVICE through a computer allowed the government to conduct passcode recovery analysis.
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Key sentence bolded. When uploading firmware onto a new device you it must be 'signed' by apple. Only apple have access to the secret keys that allow them to 'sign' new software updates, so I think technically it is possible for apple to provide the code with it only being applicable to one phone.

That's in theory. Only apple really knows the true capabilitiesrepercussions of this. My take, which I expanded on in post 29 is that there is either some unknown factor which would allow the backdoor to be used by other companies, or that they are simply standing up for digital security rights in the face of the courts, obfuscating their position by saying that it would allow for any phone to be hacked.

What's important to note is that the phone in question is an iPhone 5C, which doesn't have the hardware security features of phones 5S+ onwards, so it's unlikely that the hack would ever work on a phone more recent than the 5S+ (which is a few generations old).
 
Nilly said:
Pete I respect your technical knowledge but it's incredibly clear from your posts (not just in this thread) that you are a hater of all things apple (and a lover of M$), and I don't think you're coming at this from an objective viewpoint.
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First off I dont love Microsoft.. I use their products because they are the best for my needs. Secondly my issue with Apple is based on facts and not the myth/hype that Apple has manufactured.

Apple iPhone security is actually pretty damn great. Recently it has come on in leaps and bounds. In the past a simple lock screen bypass could have been done and the FBI could get in.
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Yes sure and had the terrorist not updated just before his attack, then you would be able to bypass the lock screen. Putting a fancy fingerprint scanner on a phone does not make it more secure... that is just an illusion.

Now, the usage of every single app on your phone requires the unlock key (in the background), so a lock bypass wouldn't do the trick anymore. The backdoor that is being discussed may not even be possible on iPhones since the 5S+ because the new A7 processor also requires the hardware key, and the introduction of the touchID also meant the introduction of the SE (security enclave) providing barriers that are not patchable in the same way the iOS firmware is (although it's currently unclear if apple have the capabilities to patch the SE without wiping it).
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And? The 5S+ all were hacked anyways. So much for that supposed security upgrades?

iOS' security blows androids security out of the water (to paraphrase a security guy I know, android security is basically an unlatched screen door).
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If you compare the latest Android version with the latest iOS version then no. Problem with Android is the fragmentation and that causes security problems.

Number of vulnerabilities in an OS doesn't necessarily correspond to the number of threats.
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Sorry but every vulnerability is a threat at some point if you dont patch it. The list of iOS vulnerabilities (and OSX) is far longer than Android and both are far longer than Microsoft funny enough.

Android has a far greater history of exploits, in fact, 97% of mobile exploits are targeted at android because it's so much easier to crack.
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Android has a greater history because more use Android world wide so it is a much juicier target. Same reason Windows is the primary malware/virus target over OSX.. more people use it. The problem with Android is as I stated fragmentation... there are a lot of devices that have not been patched due to manufactures not updating old devices. It is the biggest problem with Android ecosystem in my mind. Add to that, the ability to easily bypass the official app store and you are bound to get into trouble. Most Android "hacks" happen in China.. same with iOS hacks btw.. because they are forced to non Google / Apple stores and well.

If this whole incident happened on an android phone we wouldn't even be having this discussion because the FBI would have just rooted the phone and already accessed the data. One of the most basic digital security principles is do not build systems that you can get around. If you can get around it. Someone else eventually will. Backdoors hurt us all.
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Would depend on the make of the phone and other than that I agree.. but my point with Apple is that they are claiming a moral security high ground when their history does in no way match facts. They claim that they cant.. that there is no backdoor.. and THAT I call to be bull****. A control freak organisation like Apple, has no backdoor into their own system? Seriously????

The majority of icloud security hacks were done by phishing for passwords, not by exploiting apple code.
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yes that is what Apple says... amazing how hackers could trick 10k+ people for YEARS without anyone noticing at Apple.
 
JESUS CHRIST!! THINK PEOPLE! THINK, YOU SCARED LITTLE ****S, THINK!

There are so many consequences that will result in Apple giving up their panties, so many precedents which will come back to bite not only Apple as a company but all of us as supposedly free citizens right in the ass that to think because some dip **** in a black moo moo wants to overreach his authority because of this crock of doo doo "War on Terror"

Such idiocy shouldn't be surprising to me anymore, but it is...

Sick.
 
Cephus said:
Apple could easily take the phone, crack it themselves and turn over a complete record of everything on the phone to the FBI. There would be nothing for the FBI to reverse engineer because they would never be involved with the actual cracking. Apple is just being a bunch of dicks.
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No they can't. The government is asking Apple to disable a feature that would allow the government to be able to brute force gain access to the device by trying billions of passwords. The government would retain possession of the device as well as the modified version of the OS to that would allow the government access.
 
PeteEU said:
Listen I have followed Apple since the 1980s and Apple after Steve Jobs 2.0 "claimed" a lot that turned out to be bull****. Apple 2.0 as I call it turned into an evil company inspired by NeXT.

Apple has been caught in false claims many times. We have antennagate which Apple claimed that there was nothing wrong and people were holding it wrong, to my favourite on the Mac Book Pro graphics card that was clearly faulty but Apple claimed it was not, and then 2 years later admitted it and made a recall, well knowing that most people had bought a new one and discarded the old broken one.

Or there was of course the Frapping, where 99% of the images were taking from iOS devices and the most likely culprit was iCloud security. To this day, Apple claims that it was the 10+ celeberties that all had poor passwords... yea right.. the tech world had been complaining for years over the poor security on iCloud and Apple is still sticking to this?

Or the latest recall by Apple.. chargers. For years we heard about iPhones and chargers blowing up basically and each time the Apple marketing team claimed it was 3rd party "China" charger and wire that was the problem, despite many saying it was not. Then suddenly a few weeks ago.. recall!

So Apple claim a lot of things but they can not be trusted.



And that is horse****. Chances are the "weaknesses" they are talking about are already being exploited, but the US legal system cant use them for legal reasons. iOS is by FAR the most problematic security wise on known security holes. Not long ago, Apple left a massive hole in their App store go unpatched for over a year.. and that lead to malware being put on peoples phones. They claim it was only jailbroken phones at first, but then suddenly they started removing thousands of apps... ups!

Remember the Frapping? That picture collection happened over years by many people, so the exploit was known by the hacker world and they used it. Apple did nothing.

Another example.. Remember Google getting fined for exploiting a bug in Safari to change the security settings? Well that bug was well know for 2 years by people in the industry and had been reported many times to Apple. Google was far from the only one exploiting the bug. Apple did NOTHING for 2 years.. and yes Safari was updated many times in those 2 years.



Their argument is hollow. They could just get the data off the device in a secure clean room where no one else has access to the "device" that cracks the phone. This room could be as secure as Fort Knox. They would not have to give the method to the Feds or anyone.. it would remain in the hands of a select few within Apple. You entrust your nuclear codes to a select few, but Apple cant do this? seriously?
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Did you read the article? In short the government wants Apple to disable the "10 incorrect passwords and we wipe device" protection so that the government can brute force attempt to log into it. That requires a custom built OS. The government would retain possession of the device and the custom OS so they could attempt to break in using some of those very fast NSA computers.

Look I get it. You don't like Apple. That's not the point. The point is that by creating a new OS that Apple loses possession of all iPhone owners devices become less secure.
 
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PeteEU said:
Yes sure and had the terrorist not updated just before his attack, then you would be able to bypass the lock screen. Putting a fancy fingerprint scanner on a phone does not make it more secure... that is just an illusion.
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It's not just a fingerprint scanner though.

Since iOS8, all iphone apps are secured with both the iphone passcode and a hardware key.

Since the A7 chip came out (same time as the touch ID), apple also introduced the SE, which is a separate computer inside the A7 processor that provides access to data protected services like keychain, touch ID etc. It's basically a form of 2 factor authentication because you need the SE to work as well as the normal iOS firmware, and the SE is not patchable in the way the iOS firmware is, it has inbuilt hardware limitations that prevent brute force attacks (i.e. requiring delays between SE key refreshes so that each new brute force attempt takes exponentially longer time).

PeteEU said:
And? The 5S+ all were hacked anyways. So much for that supposed security upgrades?
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Primarily social engineering.

PeteEU said:
If you compare the latest Android version with the latest iOS version then no. Problem with Android is the fragmentation and that causes security problems.
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I don't understand how 'fragmentation' is an excuse. It does cause more security problems. You even admit that yourself. That's the issue. Maybe if Apple was as fragmented it would hav emore security issues. But it isn't.

PeteEU said:
Sorry but every vulnerability is a threat at some point if you dont patch it. The list of iOS vulnerabilities (and OSX) is far longer than Android and both are far longer than Microsoft funny enough.

Android has a greater history because more use Android world wide so it is a much juicier target. Same reason Windows is the primary malware/virus target over OSX.. more people use it. The problem with Android is as I stated fragmentation... there are a lot of devices that have not been patched due to manufactures not updating old devices. It is the biggest problem with Android ecosystem in my mind. Add to that, the ability to easily bypass the official app store and you are bound to get into trouble. Most Android "hacks" happen in China.. same with iOS hacks btw.. because they are forced to non Google / Apple stores and well.
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Proportionally, android has more threats per percent market share than apple. Again, you talk about all these reasons why android isn't as secure (access to official stores, unsigned software etc) then somehow claim it's more secure than Apple? End of the day, it might have fewer software vulnerabilities but that doesn't mean it's a more secure OS. It's not. Walled gardens may be frustrating but they do have upsides. A wall.

PeteEU said:
Would depend on the make of the phone and other than that I agree.. but my point with Apple is that they are claiming a moral security high ground when their history does in no way match facts. They claim that they cant.. that there is no backdoor.. and THAT I call to be bull****. A control freak organisation like Apple, has no backdoor into their own system? Seriously????
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No, I genuinely believe they don't. Again, one of the first principles of digital security is don't build a system you can get into. As for the moral high ground, what??? This is why I think your posts are some vendetta against apple. Apple don't have perfect security. Nobody does. Apple aren't claiming that. What apple are claiming is that we shouldn't be building backdoors into our own systems. That is admirable.

When it comes to backdoors into various system, the government has demonstrated knowledge in the past of various backdoors into various things (routers, modems, things like that). This is hardware and software belonging to Microsoft, Redhat, Netgear, Linksys. They keep these backdoors a secret and then use them. I write software. I'm sure there are vulnerabilities in the software I write. I also pay tax dollars. And I expect my tax dollars to go into improving these things. Not exploiting them.

PeteEU said:
yes that is what Apple says... amazing how hackers could trick 10k+ people for YEARS without anyone noticing at Apple.
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The social engineering methods used to get to users data have been reviewed and verified. The fact that the 4 digits that amazon finds acceptable to show online also turn out to be the 4 digits that apple deems secure enough to give you your information is a problem. Of course it is. It's also something that isn't fixable by technology.
 
JoeTrumps said:
any other decade this would make my jaw drop. The country is attacked by terrorists and an AMERICAN COMPANY A) won't lift a finger to help the investigation B)will be APPLAUDED by a sizable part of the population.

only in america folks. only in (obama's) america
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Like anything else you have to balance competing interests. The government has an interest in getting evidence. Owners of those devices have an interest in seeing their privacy maintained. Killing a couple of dozen people is a horrible, but horrible as it is it does not justify any and every action on the part of law enforcement.
 
JoeTrumps said:
So at the bottom of the phone plan you sign with apple they can add in "if you are accused of CARRYING OUT(not even planning, but actually carrying out) a terrorist attack on American soil, and the federal government asks apple for YOUR info, we will give it to them.

tell me true, how many people do you think would REFUSE TO SIGN with apple under those conditions?!?! Kobie ok. yes. him probably. but that's it!
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It isn't that simple. Creating ways to break into phones for the good guys gives the same opportunity to the bad guys. People who do computer security for a living point this out regularly and people still fail to comprehend that simple fact.
 
Kobie said:
It takes a special kind of hackery to try and pin this on Obama.
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Why has he spoken out against this or is the federal government that he's the head of perusing this?

wait, nope.

White House: U.S. asking Apple for access to a single device only | Reuters.com
Obama administration orders Apple to ignore the laws of math [UPDATED] | RedState


so yeah, in "obama's america" seems apropo


plus they must think you are stupid, hoping you won't get that "it's only one device" is an outright lie.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Why has he spoken out against this or is the federal government that he's the head of perusing this?

wait, nope.

White House: U.S. asking Apple for access to a single device only | Reuters.com
Obama administration orders Apple to ignore the laws of math [UPDATED] | RedState


so yeah, in "obama's america" seems apropo


plus they must think you are stupid, hoping you won't get that "it's only one device" is an outright lie.
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That's not what he was talking about. He was screeching that people could only defend this in "Obama's America," which is laughable.

On topic, I can certainly understand Apple's apprehension here.
 
Kobie said:
That's not what he was talking about. He was screeching that people could only defend this in "Obama's America," which is laughable.

On topic, I can certainly understand Apple's apprehension here.
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yes that was quite partisanly over the top.


Then again so is this "only one fone" comment from the white house. Either they are stupid, or counting on you being stupid.
 
Gaius46 said:
It isn't that simple. Creating ways to break into phones for the good guys gives the same opportunity to the bad guys. People who do computer security for a living point this out regularly and people still fail to comprehend that simple fact.
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Maybe it's because the good guys ain't so good. The CIA could crack the code for that one phone without any help. The fact that law enforcement wants to be able to create a back door for ALL phones tells me that this is yet another attempt by the surveillance state to be able to spy on everybody at their whim.... Why? Because that's what they want.
 
Apple Resisting FBI Demand That the Crack the IPhone
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i admit that i support this. if they build the FBI a backdoor, someone else will inevitably get in, and it will spread to every OS that hasn't already caved.
 
Helix said:
i admit that i support this. if they build the FBI a backdoor, someone else will inevitably get in, and it will spread to every OS that hasn't already caved.
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I fear for the Republic.

I would have bet the ranch on the Federal Gubmint being able to break any code or firewall ever built. Perhaps they should make this a national science project for America's Middle Schools.... :peace
 
OrphanSlug said:
We should all be very concerned about conditions where the government is appealing to product makers to "crack" the products they make once in the hands of a consumer. That does not help this particular case, but we open up a window where no one is safe from government intrusion.
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Its more like one more, bigger window.
 
Gaius46 said:
No they can't. The government is asking Apple to disable a feature that would allow the government to be able to brute force gain access to the device by trying billions of passwords. The government would retain possession of the device as well as the modified version of the OS to that would allow the government access.
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And Apple can offer to unlock the phone without giving the government anything but the data. Apple instead is refusing to do anything at all. Apple sucks.
 
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