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In Reversal, Campaign Says Ted Cruz Does Have Health Insurance

OK, one plan was cancelled and they were automatically re-enrolled in another plan with no break in coverage. The poor family - such hardship.

well, no. Blue Cruss Blue Shield got out of the individual PPO market entirely, as the ACA made it too expensive for them to remain. This happened to hundreds of thousands of Texans.

Right, insurance is difficult, which is why it's such a bad idea to pretend that the "market" approach Cruz supports won't have much more of the kind of confusion that apparently is too difficult to navigate for an ivy league graduate, national debate champion, lawyer, Senator, with an army of staff, AND his investment banker wife.

:lol: insurance is difficult?

No, our healthcare market is screwed up because we don't follow a market approach. Health insurance is made endlessly more complex because we don't follow a market approach. Insurance isn't difficult. Regulation is complex.

But he didn't say they cancelled all individual PPOs, he said, "Blue Cross Blue Shield canceled all their individual policies in the state of Texas."

That's correct, and he was referencing the letter that his family got saying that they were doing so.

However, they were referring to the PPO side of the market, not the HMO side of the market. :shrug: this isn't a lie

The claim that he was uninsured at the time was a lie. We shouldn't fall off the horse on the left or the right side when judging truthfulness and accuracy.

Well, kudos I guess. He got caught in a lie and admitted it. Sad when we give people credit for that. I have to admit my mistakes all the time and no one gives me credit for that at all...

:) Well, run for office.

I can't stand the guy period, and will never vote for him under any circumstance, so I'm just entertaining myself here. As to Clinton, I won't vote for her in the primary, and we'll see who the options are in the general. If it's Cruz v. Hillary, I'll puke first then probably vote for Hillary, or stay home or vote third party so I won't feel so sick when I'm done.

Progressives tend to hate Cruz as much as the GOP party leadership does. He certainly doesn't make many friends outside of his circle.
 
Doesn't seem so to me. I suppose the ACA requires people to have fairly comprehensive plans. But within that constraint, there's plenty of leeway.

My aunt lost her insurance because - as a 60 year old divorcee - she didn't have pediatric dental coverage. Yeah, part of the point of Obamacare was to force people out of the plans they had and into specific kinds of plans.

I don't take it that way, and furthermore, I'm not sure it's true that the ACA is a cause, at least directly, of any cancellations.

:lol: it is the direct cause of millions of cancellations. Did you really miss this?

The direct causes have been, in every case I've ever heard of, insurance company execs deciding to withdraw a particular plan.

So... the law isn't the cause of companies choosing to follow the law....

OK. I think we can agree that, at least presently, there are no "death panels" in any sense that there weren't before the ACA.

There was no IPAB before the ACA, it is a creation of the ACA.

Are you saying that was its express purpose? That is, is that its mission? Is that what its members take themselves to be doing?

Yes. Furthermore, their decisions were designed to be unrestrained. The law required a Congressional super majority to override an IPAB decision. Because the last thing we need is self-government.

Seems like a difficult claim to make. How do you know what his intent was?

Because we now know that the White House knew at the time that it was claiming that millions of American's wouldn't be kicked off their plans.... that in fact they would be.

OK, so I've already said what I'm about to say again: this is a different criticism than the one you previously levels. Unless you think it's literally impossible for Obama not to have known the full effects of the legislation, that is. If you do think that, I would suggest that's pretty harsh black-and-white thinking that just doesn't make much sense.

:lol: according to the White House's own estimates from 2010, somewhere between 40 and 67% of Americans in the individual market were anticipated to lose their coverage. They knew full well what was about to happen, and they lied about it.

I said such force--i.e. force such as the kind of force mentioned just previously in the post you've quoted. In other words, Obama was saying that no one would be forced to accept a substandard plan, employers would not be forced to offer plans that don't pay for cancer, or other such examples.

No, Obama said "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan". He didn't say "If you like the plan and it happens to meet the requirements that we've laid out, you can keep it." He said "If you like your plan, you can keep it". When, in fact:

So first, let's be clear. I'm sure the administration knew that people with plans that were no longer legal under the ACA would lose those plans.

They knew full damn well that those millions of people were going to lose their plans.

They lied. Even left-leaning Politifact, which bends over backwards to try to find exculpating evidence for democrats, labeled it the Lie of the Year.

No one should have interpreted Obama as saying something which clearly contradicts the very language of the ACA, because he couldn't have meant that. That's just common sense.

:lol: Politicians would never lie in order to get their signature legislation passed!!! Never ever ever! That's just common sense! :lamo

Not a good analogy. The effects of a bomb may not be entirely susceptible to prediction, but the main effect is predictable.

Yeah. So was the main effect of tying Community Rating and Guaranteed Issue together with meager (relatively) punitive measures for non-participation: adverse selection followed by financial losses. Which was predicted, and which is happening.

It's a matter of physics; there are no agents which intervene between lit fuse and explosion. By contrast, there are a number of agents that intervene between the passing of the ACA and the cancellation of an insurance plan. In the bomb case, the effects are reasonably reliable and can be modeled mathematically. In the insurance case, the effects are not reliable and cannot be modeled mathematically, except in a statistical sense. That is, there's no way to tell what kind of decision an individual will make. We can at best say what kinds of decisions will be made within large enough groups.

:shrug: the administration estimated that they 40-67% of people with individual plans would lose them. Then they went out and told the American people the number was zero. They lied.
 
Feined lefty outrage is feined.
65023219.jpg

Didn't you say you are going to make a thread dedicated to each of Hillary's lies? I'm all for it, I think it's a great idea, but why on earth wouldn't you support the same thing for another candidate?

Either a presidential candidate lying is something worthy of discussion or it isn't. When you only care about the candidates lying that you disagree with, you let the entire forum know that you really aren't worth talking to because you aren't interested in facts or reality, just interested in ideology and nothing else. It's sad really.
 
well, no. Blue Cruss Blue Shield got out of the individual PPO market entirely, as the ACA made it too expensive for them to remain. This happened to hundreds of thousands of Texans.

:lol: insurance is difficult?

No, our healthcare market is screwed up because we don't follow a market approach. Health insurance is made endlessly more complex because we don't follow a market approach. Insurance isn't difficult. Regulation is complex.

I agree health insurance is very easy if you've got plenty of money like Cruz - you buy the best coverage available. If you get healthcare through work, same thing - get the best plan offered. If you're relatively healthy and your family is, select the highest copays offered. But the individual market is very complex. It's off topic so I won't say more, but there is no reality in which the individual market is made simple for average people.

That's correct, and he was referencing the letter that his family got saying that they were doing so.

However, they were referring to the PPO side of the market, not the HMO side of the market. :shrug: this isn't a lie

Right, he just made a false statement that BCBS cancelled all their "individual" policies, but it isn't a lie it was just false! Got it!

Progressives tend to hate Cruz as much as the GOP party leadership does. He certainly doesn't make many friends outside of his circle.

Well, to give Cruz credit, he's managed to offend almost everyone who has worked with him, leadership, rank and file, whatever! I can't remember the issue, but at one last fall he couldn't even get a 'second' for one of his meaningless votes on the Senate floor, and then was shouted down when he requested a voice vote. No one stood with him. That takes a rare skill in being a total jerk to those who work with you day to day, and he's got it!
 
Didn't you say you are going to make a thread dedicated to each of Hillary's lies?

If he did that, we should report it as threatening a Denial of Service attack on the website.
 
I agree health insurance is very easy if you've got plenty of money like Cruz - you buy the best coverage available. If you get healthcare through work, same thing - get the best plan offered. If you're relatively healthy and your family is, select the highest copays offered. But the individual market is very complex. It's off topic so I won't say more, but there is no reality in which the individual market is made simple for average people.

Well now you're trying to pivot and divert altogether. Really? That's your response?

"Look over there - an evil rich person!!!"

:roll:

Right, he just made a false statement that BCBS cancelled all their "individual" policies, but it isn't a lie it was just false! Got it!

He was correct in what he was referencing. The lie was when he claimed that he was uninsured. BCBS did pull entirely out of his market - they could no longer sustain ACA-imposed burdens on it. Want me to link it for you again?

Well, to give Cruz credit, he's managed to offend almost everyone who has worked with him, leadership, rank and file, whatever! I can't remember the issue, but at one last fall he couldn't even get a 'second' for one of his meaningless votes on the Senate floor, and then was shouted down when he requested a voice vote. No one stood with him. That takes a rare skill in being a total jerk to those who work with you day to day, and he's got it!

He called McConnel a liar on the Senate floor for no other reason than the mere fact that McConnel lied to him. The nerve, right?


But yes, it's the main reason he's not my preferred candidate.
 
If he did that, we should report it as threatening a Denial of Service attack on the website.

Thankfully, I think he's spacing out each lie a little bit rather than rapid fire. The only problem with that is that if it's too slow, like only one a day, we can't go over all of them before November.
 
Didn't you say you are going to make a thread dedicated to each of Hillary's lies? I'm all for it, I think it's a great idea, but why on earth wouldn't you support the same thing for another candidate?

Because IOKIYAR

It's OK if you're a republican

It's sad really.

You misspelled "hackish"
 
Didn't you say you are going to make a thread dedicated to each of Hillary's lies? I'm all for it, I think it's a great idea, but why on earth wouldn't you support the same thing for another candidate?

Either a presidential candidate lying is something worthy of discussion or it isn't. When you only care about the candidates lying that you disagree with, you let the entire forum know that you really aren't worth talking to because you aren't interested in facts or reality, just interested in ideology and nothing else. It's sad really.

Its was last year sometime (spring?) where Cruz said he was losing his coverage. I never saw where he said he lost it or did not have it.
 
Huh. Well you may be right - I'm on my phone at current, and my awareness is agreeably limited. Which company was it that was making noise about pulling out?

The point, however, remains. Millions of Americans lost their plans - the plans they liked - because of Obamacare. If Cruz was one of them :shrug: he should bring it up. He just shouldn't exaggerate his current status.
Exaggerate or lie?
 
I wasn't making it about Clinton. I was commenting on the hypocrisy of liberals. Granted, I could do that every thread, but it seemed most appropriate here however.
Unless I am mistaken, highly doubtful on that, but i do not see the hand of god dropping from the heavens to anoint Cruz or Trump. They may think that, their supporters may think that, and I would think they are crazier than a ****house rat.
 
It's only been quoted and linked to several times in this thread.

monkeys.jpg

I wont be getting my news from this thread, and regardless of what I find, there is a pesky thing called context.

This isn't exactly a scandal, and it pales in comparison to anything Canks Clinton has going on.

Deal with it.
 
This isn't exactly a scandal, and it pales in comparison to anything Canks Clinton has going on.

The scandal is how user-unfriendly and tilted toward the insurance companies Ted Cruz wants to make the individual health insurance markets, when he personally can't even navigate the simplified, consumer-friendly one that exists right now under the ACA.

But I suspect nobody's going to talk about that.
 
The scandal is how user-unfriendly and tilted toward the insurance companies Ted Cruz wants to make the individual health insurance markets, when he personally can't even navigate the simplified, consumer-friendly one that exists right now under the ACA.

But I suspect nobody's going to talk about that.

Several times this campaign Ive seen headlines and presumptions made about Cruz and with investigation it turns out completely wrong. I just dont trust the MSM in its "reporting".
 
Several times this campaign Ive seen headlines and presumptions made about Cruz and with investigation it turns out completely wrong. I just dont trust the MSM in its "reporting".

I'm not talking about a headline, I'm talking about his actual proposal.

If he can't manage the basics under the simplified consumer-friendly world of the ACA, he's doomed under the chaotic, opaque mess he's proposing to create.
 
cpwill said:
My aunt lost her insurance because - as a 60 year old divorcee - she didn't have pediatric dental coverage. Yeah, part of the point of Obamacare was to force people out of the plans they had and into specific kinds of plans.

I got to keep my plan with no dental coverage at all. I suspect there's more to the story than this...

cpwill said:
it is the direct cause of millions of cancellations. Did you really miss this?

Miss?

cpwill said:
So... the law isn't the cause of companies choosing to follow the law....

Two points:

1. No, it is not.

2. The situation is even more complicated. There's nothing against the law for insurance companies to continue to offer whatever plans they like. However, they must offer plans under certain constraints, and individuals must have insurance with certain features. Companies made choices to continue, or not, certain plans.

cpwill said:
There was no IPAB before the ACA, it is a creation of the ACA.

So, IPAB is a death panel in the relevant sense? The IPAB is deciding who will live and who will die, on a by-name basis? That was the accusation from folks like Palin...

cpwill said:
Yes. Furthermore, their decisions were designed to be unrestrained. The law required a Congressional super majority to override an IPAB decision. Because the last thing we need is self-government.

You'll have to provide some fairly convincing evidence of this. Not the bit about the Congressional super-majority. The bit about the members of IPAB taking themselves to be participating in a death-panel.

cpwill said:
Because we now know that the White House knew at the time that it was claiming that millions of American's wouldn't be kicked off their plans.... that in fact they would be.

You're ignoring background information. You're like a partygoer who, when the host announces that "all the beer is gone," falls to his knees and beseaches the Lord to make it not so. Most people would be aware the host is merely saying that the beer in the house is gone, not all the beer everywhere in the universe. Background information is crucial to understanding a claim. Again, it's unreasonable to take Obama to be saying something that is clearly inconsistent with the plain language of the law. He should be interpretted as having meant something else. This sort of thing happens all the time in conversation in any language.

cpwill said:
according to the White House's own estimates from 2010, somewhere between 40 and 67% of Americans in the individual market were anticipated to lose their coverage. They knew full well what was about to happen, and they lied about it.

The people who lost their plans had plans that were no longer legal as primary plans. The plain language of the law indicated as much. Again, Obama could not have meant what you're saying he meant. It's much more reasonable to take him to be refering to a more restricted subset (just as the host above is referring not to all beer in the universe, just all beer in his house).

cpwill said:
No, Obama said "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan". He didn't say "If you like the plan and it happens to meet the requirements that we've laid out, you can keep it." He said "If you like your plan, you can keep it". When, in fact:

You're missing the point. Nothing in the law required insurance companies to drop those plans. They could have been kept as supplemental plans for major medical or something like that. The fact that insurance companies, in some instances, cancelled those plans is not a direct consequence of the law. I would agree it was an indirect consequence.

cpwill said:
Politicians would never lie in order to get their signature legislation passed!!! Never ever ever! That's just common sense!

Politicians seldom lie in the classic sense. It's more a case of misinformation and careful wording.

cpwill said:
the administration estimated that they 40-67% of people with individual plans would lose them. Then they went out and told the American people the number was zero. They lied.

Nope, for reasons already stated.
 
I got to keep my plan with no dental coverage at all. I suspect there's more to the story than this...

:shrug: not much. She retired at 60, as part of her package her company continued to pay her insurance until Medicare picked up at 65, then her insurance went away because it lacked pediatric dental. So now she's an elderly woman who is already on a fixed retirement budget who has to either come up with years of expensive health insurance she hadn't planned on, or take the risk to go without until she hits 65.


yes. Miss. Did you miss it. It was sort of big news. The White House admitted it, but then claimed it didn't matter, because all those plans were bad, anyway.

Two points:

1. No, it is not.

YES, it is. When you use the coercive power of government to mandate something, you are the cause of it.

2. The situation is even more complicated. There's nothing against the law for insurance companies to continue to offer whatever plans they like. However, they must offer plans under certain constraints

Alright. I want you to look real hard at the bolded sections there, and tell me if you notice the tension between those two items.

Hint: If you can do anything you want, but only within these guidelines, then you can't actually do anything you want.

and individuals must have insurance with certain features. Companies made choices to continue, or not, certain plans.

Because to do otherwise would be to violate the law.

So, IPAB is a death panel in the relevant sense? The IPAB is deciding who will live and who will die, on a by-name basis? That was the accusation from folks like Palin...

No, it wasn't. That was the mockery made of the argument by the left. The IPAB was designed to ration healthcare. The argument made was that this would result in the same kinds of calculations that get made everywhere else government is put in charge of rationing healthcare, where the government chooses to restrict or effectively deny care to high-cost and high-risk patients because that's where you make your savings.

The Actual Conservative Arguments ran like this:

...Both here and across the pond in the UK, government agencies ration healthcare. In the UK, the rationing board is ironically called NICE, or National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. Under ObamaCare, the comparable agency is IPAB, the Independent Payment Advisory Board. Rationing boards evaluate “cost effectiveness” of treatments and medications, deciding which ones to pay for, or not.

If the rationing board decides to not pay for a particular treatment or drug, patients are out of luck. If the denied treatment is lifesaving, guess what follows? Hence the characterization of these rationing boards as “death panels.” Sarah Palin warned of “death panels” within ObamaCare but as usual was ridiculed by the media. Yet in the UK, their National Health Service (NHS), the model for ObamaCare, just demonstrated another example of their death panels. “Six breast cancer drugs are to be banned from use by NHS patients,” according to the Daily Mail. How’s that for “war on women”?...

and this:

...if President Obama wanted to keep a lid on that particular controversy, he just selected about the worst possible nominee for director of the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the office that oversees government health care programs. Obama’s pick, Dr. Donald Berwick, is an outspoken admirer of the British National Health Service and its rationing arm, the National Institute for Clinical Effectiveness (NICE).

“I am romantic about the National Health Service. I love it,” Berwick said during a 2008 speech to British physicians, going on to call it “generous, hopeful, confident, joyous, and just.”...

Berwick was referring to a British health care system where 750,000 patients are awaiting admission to NHS hospitals. The government’s official target for diagnostic testing was a wait of no more than 18 weeks by 2008. The reality doesn’t come close. The latest estimates suggest that for most specialties, only 30 to 50 percent of patients are treated within 18 weeks. For trauma and orthopedics patients, the figure is only 20 percent.

Overall, more than half of British patients wait more than 18 weeks for care. Every year, 50,000 surgeries are canceled because patients become too sick on the waiting list to proceed. The one thing the NHS is good at is saving money. After all, it is far cheaper to let the sick die than to provide care....
 
ashurbanipal said:
You'll have to provide some fairly convincing evidence of this. Not the bit about the Congressional super-majority. The bit about the members of IPAB taking themselves to be participating in a death-panel.

Their task was to reduce expenditures in the system and their tool was reducing reimbursements to the point where providers could no longer afford to perform the service. :shrug:

Again, it's unreasonable to take Obama to be saying something that is clearly inconsistent with the plain language of the law.

Unless of course, he is lying, which we now know that he was, as it has since come out that the White House knew that the arguments it was making were false when they were making it.

adopting as an assumption "Obama wouldn't lie to help sell his signature piece of legislation" when assessing whether or not he lied is simply assuming your conclusion. It's a logical fallacy.

The people who lost their plans had plans that were no longer legal

Exactly.

Which is why your later claim that:

Nothing in the law required insurance companies to drop those plans

Is laughable. The law explicitly did require insurance companies to drop those plans.

Again, Obama could not have meant what you're saying he meant. It's much more reasonable to take him to be refering to a more restricted subset (just as the host above is referring not to all beer in the universe, just all beer in his house).

When you make an absolutist statement that "if you like your health insurance, you can keep your health insurance", you aren't adding in the "so long as your pre-existing plan meets the new conditions and criteria". Not even the White House tried to mount that defense.

Politicians seldom lie in the classic sense.

True, which is part of what makes this case so interesting. Since we know that the White House knew that 40-67% of people in the individual markets would lose their plans at the same time that they were claiming that was not true, this is a direct, bald-faced lie.

Which is why it actually earned the left-leaning Politifacts' Lie of the Year.

Nope, for reasons already stated.

:lol: yeah. Which basically boil down to a refusal to believe it because it isn't true because it isn't.
 
Did someone here defend Cruz? I didn't see it.

You deflected onto... "Oh those lying liberals acting all liberal with their liberalness." So yeah, you did... via deflection.
 
Trump surpasses her by far. If his mouth is moving he's lying, and I don't even necessarily believes he's doing it on purpose. I once had a co-worker who lied about everything, no lie was too big or too small. Sure, a lot of those lies were obviously self serving, but so many of them were just meaningless. She would lie about what she had for breakfast, she would lie about what somebody said, would lie about what route she took to work, and the rest of us would just scratch our heads and wonder why she would lie about such utterly inconsequential things. It just made no damn sense. I believe Trump especially is just pathological like that. He opens his mouth and says the first thing that pops into his brain with no regard for its accuracy. Clinton, by contrast, occasionally tells the truth.

It's gotten to the point where if Trump does tell the truth, what goes through my brain is "Huh. Sunnavabitch. What he just said was true." Like when Jeb Bush said that his brother made the country safe from terrorism and Trump said, "Well, technically, 9/11 happened on Bush's watch." Well...that was true.



Actually, cpwill brought Hillary into the discussion.

She sounds like Penelope character on SNL

 
cpwill said:
not much. She retired at 60, as part of her package her company continued to pay her insurance until Medicare picked up at 65, then her insurance went away because it lacked pediatric dental. So now she's an elderly woman who is already on a fixed retirement budget who has to either come up with years of expensive health insurance she hadn't planned on, or take the risk to go without until she hits 65.

Odd, then, that my plan remains in place despite no dental coverage...

cpwill said:
yes. Miss. Did you miss it. It was sort of big news. The White House admitted it, but then claimed it didn't matter, because all those plans were bad, anyway.

I know what happened. I disagree about how to interpret what was said (specifically, what was said by Obama). I'm not making an argument to deny some set of historic events. I'm making an argument about how people use language. That argument goes over the head of most people in this country, so it's not the sort of argument Obama would make in his own defense. I nevertheless think it's the one that should be made, because it's the correct way to view the situation.

cpwill said:
YES, it is. When you use the coercive power of government to mandate something, you are the cause of it.

But simply writing and passing a regulation isn't to use the coercive power of government. There are laws on the books right now in many states against oral sex, even between married couples. Those laws are never enforced.

In this case, as I have been pointing out, there are additional layers which intervene between law and effect.

cpwill said:
Alright. I want you to look real hard at the bolded sections there, and tell me if you notice the tension between those two items.

Hint: If you can do anything you want, but only within these guidelines, then you can't actually do anything you want.

Hmmm...I say to my daughter: you must clean your room twice a week, and clean your bathroom once a week. Other than that, you can do whatever you like with your time.

Have I just told my daughter she cannot, say, read a Stephen King novel?

The point you're trying to make is analogous to concluding that because I've given her some constraints about what she must do, I've told my daughter what she must not do. Government has told insurance companies they must offer plans that meet certain criteria. But there is no regulation that insurance companies may not offer whatever plans they wish otherwise, provided they do offer the mandated plans.

cpwill said:
No, it wasn't. That was the mockery made of the argument by the left.

There is some irony here that you're asking for a nuanced view of language by Palin, yet refusing to consider the same possibility of Obama. Nevertheless, I'll bite. How do you take what Palin said? For convenience, here is what she said:

And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

See below re: principle of charity.
 
cpwill said:
The IPAB was designed to ration healthcare. The argument made was that this would result in the same kinds of calculations that get made everywhere else government is put in charge of rationing healthcare, where the government chooses to restrict or effectively deny care to high-cost and high-risk patients because that's where you make your savings.

I'm curious whether the IPAB tells private insurance companies which treatments to cover.

cpwill said:
The Actual Conservative Arguments ran like this:

Part of what you quoted is fairly close to what I understood, and part of it was not. It looks to me like there are two distinct issues. There are no death panels. There's no one sitting in a room reviewing individual cases saying "this one lives. This one dies."

There is a need to make decisions about which treatments are effective, and which are not. Look: my maternal grandmother lived to be 93 years old. In the end, she was extremely ill. Had someone wanted to pour literally hundreds of millions of dollars into her, doing things like buying up all the donated blood available in the Midwest, hooking her up to machines of which there are a limited number, sure, she could have lived another year or two.

The point is it's not just a matter of monetary cost. Had we taken up all the donated blood, for example, there would be no blood to use for young accident victims who might otherwise have many years ahead. Cost is a proxy for stuff that's in very short supply, and more importantly, it's not clear that the rich should always be the ones with first access. There do need to be people making decisions about how certain treatments are rationed. Does it make sense to let a 90-year-old billionaire have access to a treatment that would deny it to a 19-year-old accident victim(again, think donated blood)? Does it make sense to force an insurance company to cover a treatment that costs ten billion dollars and which buys, at best, another year of life for someone, especially given that the cost will increase premiums for everyone else?

What you seem to be afraid of is the fact that people get sick and people die, and we cannot save them all. Someone, somewhere, needs to be in charge of deciding how care is distributed.

cpwill said:
Unless of course, he is lying, which we now know that he was, as it has since come out that the White House knew that the arguments it was making were false when they were making it.

Your argument is circular. Assuming he was lying, then of course, we conclude we was lying.

cpwill said:
adopting as an assumption "Obama wouldn't lie to help sell his signature piece of legislation" when assessing whether or not he lied is simply assuming your conclusion. It's a logical fallacy.

No, it's called the principle of charity. We use it all the time in philosophy, and it's recognized in most fields of study. The principle goes roughly like this: if there's a way to interpret something someone wrote or said in a manner that is consistent with their words, doesn't involve them in any logical inconsistency or other fallacy, doesn't assume dishonesty, and which generally endues them with the strongest possible case, that is the way to interpret them.

It's a matter of courtesy which I am happy to extend to anyone.

cpwill said:
The people who lost their plans had plans that were no longer legal
Exactly.

Which is why your later claim that:

Nothing in the law required insurance companies to drop those plans
Is laughable. The law explicitly did require insurance companies to drop those plans.

Well, let me clarify. The ACA just made it so that those cancelled plans could no longer be counted as primary plans. Insurance companies are still free to offer them as supplemental plans, but chose to cancel them instead.

cpwill said:
When you make an absolutist statement that "if you like your health insurance, you can keep your health insurance", you aren't adding in the "so long as your pre-existing plan meets the new conditions and criteria". Not even the White House tried to mount that defense.

Given the general level of intellectual vigor present in our society, it's not surprising they didn't mount it. That doesn't mean it's a bad defense, or even that it's the wrong defense. I think it's the correct defense. It describes what actually was happening.
 
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