• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Michael Moore calls Flint a crime scene, demands arrest of Gov. Snyder

I'm not really a fan of Moore, however there needs to be accountability here, I can't imagine the water source here being switched to Chicago river water. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that consuming water from those rivers can be extremely dangerous and possibly deadly.

This ^^^^^^^
 
"When the governor appointed an emergency financial manager (in 2011), that person came here ... to simply do one thing and one thing only, and that's cut the budget, at any cost,"

It happened to be at the costs of people's lives, but heck they did save money.

Let this be a lesson on why unfettered capitalism does not work.

Michigan. Unfettered captalism... Michigan... unfettered capitalism...

:lamo:doh:roll:

What with Democrat administration after Democrat administration everywhere throughout the state and all levels of government being horrifically mismanaged and in debt up to their eyeballs, an emergency manager comes in to cut costs to right the ship... and you claim this GOVERNMENT BUDGETARY PROCESS of trying to stop spending more than they were taking in has something to do with "capitalism?"
 
The river was not a source of water for flint because it was polluted. The pipes had not been used in years and the people of flint found a different source of water.

But you know what? Someone thought it would be cheaper to go back to using the water from the river.

My wife works for one of the largest water treatment engineering firms in the world so water is a subject that means something to us. We have an artesian well and the water is better than any water a person can buy right out of the tap. Everyone should have safe water. Anyone that would compromise safe water needs to go to jail. Trying to figure out who that person/people is/are is going to be the problem here. It seems like incompetence is one resource that isn't lacking here.
 
Agreed, but the loss of that base has been evident for decades. The reason why could be dovetailed into many reasons. My point with the political angle could be seen as partisan, but facts are fact even if they are uncomfortable.

What "facts" would those be exactly?
 
NO.... The emergency city manager didn't have anything to do with the water vote. It was a 7-1 vote by local government.

Column: Don’t blame emergency manager for Flint water disaster

From the following article:
By Joshua M. Freeman

Let's not blame the victims for the errors of the state.

The facts are clear: At no time have the elected leaders of the city of Flint voted to use the Flint River as our primary drinking source. The documented facts show the decision to move to the Flint River was made solely by emergency managers sent to run the city on behalf of the state of Michigan.

The idea of using the river as our primary drinking source was firmly rejected in favor of joining the Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA).


In March of 2013, the Flint City Council was finally presented with a resolution by the emergency manager to determine our primary drinking water source. Several options were debated and studied, including the Flint River. Many on council and the mayor had been pushing the emergency manager to move forward with the KWA option. The state refused to accept that option initially, instead requiring yet another study, this time by Detroit's own engineering firm, to confirm the projected long-term cost savings.

As Resolution 130165.2 shows, in a 7-1 vote the city council's clear intent was to rely on the KWA for our primary source of water. In the event that our daily usage exceeded 16 million gallons per day (MGD), which far exceeded our billings at the time, council wanted to have the option to blend KWA water with water from the Flint River in order to meet that excess demand.

With the only vote that local elected officials took to determine our long-term water source, KWA was endorsed as our primary source for drinking water.

Residents are left wondering who is really telling the truth surrounding these actions
Four days later, on March 29, 2013, the emergency manager enacted Resolution 2013EM041. This order restored our contracted amount from KWA to 18 MGD and removed any option for blending water from the Flint River.
...

Instead, on June 26, 2013, the emergency manager signed Resolution 2013EM140 that engaged an engineering firm to ready the Flint Water Treatment Plant to place it "into operation using the Flint River as a primary drinking water source."
It was this resolution, enacted by the state emergency manager, which started us down the path of using the Flint River.
That is an undisputable fact.

City Council president: Emergency manager set Flint on path to river water | MLive.com
 
Last edited:
Michigan. Unfettered captalism... Michigan... unfettered capitalism...

:lamo:doh:roll:

What with Democrat administration after Democrat administration everywhere throughout the state and all levels of government being horrifically mismanaged and in debt up to their eyeballs, an emergency manager comes in to cut costs to right the ship... and you claim this GOVERNMENT BUDGETARY PROCESS of trying to stop spending more than they were taking in has something to do with "capitalism?"

Laugh all you want but the people's whose lives were endangered don't think it is funny. Instead of directing their money to make sure their health was not at risk it was put on hold to be used toward deals with corporate interest.
 
From the following article:
By Joshua M. Freeman

Let's not blame the victims for the errors of the state.

The facts are clear: At no time have the elected leaders of the city of Flint voted to use the Flint River as our primary drinking source. The documented facts show the decision to move to the Flint River was made solely by emergency managers sent to run the city on behalf of the state of Michigan.

The idea of using the river as our primary drinking source was firmly rejected in favor of joining the Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA).


In March of 2013, the Flint City Council was finally presented with a resolution by the emergency manager to determine our primary drinking water source. Several options were debated and studied, including the Flint River. Many on council and the mayor had been pushing the emergency manager to move forward with the KWA option. The state refused to accept that option initially, instead requiring yet another study, this time by Detroit's own engineering firm, to confirm the projected long-term cost savings.

As Resolution 130165.2 shows, in a 7-1 vote the city council's clear intent was to rely on the KWA for our primary source of water. In the event that our daily usage exceeded 16 million gallons per day (MGD), which far exceeded our billings at the time, council wanted to have the option to blend KWA water with water from the Flint River in order to meet that excess demand.

With the only vote that local elected officials took to determine our long-term water source, KWA was endorsed as our primary source for drinking water.

Residents are left wondering who is really telling the truth surrounding these actions
Four days later, on March 29, 2013, the emergency manager enacted Resolution 2013EM041. This order restored our contracted amount from KWA to 18 MGD and removed any option for blending water from the Flint River.
...

Instead, on June 26, 2013, the emergency manager signed Resolution 2013EM140 that engaged an engineering firm to ready the Flint Water Treatment Plant to place it "into operation using the Flint River as a primary drinking water source."
It was this resolution, enacted by the state emergency manager, which started us down the path of using the Flint River.
That is an undisputable fact.[/QUOTE]

City Council president: Emergency manager set Flint on path to river water | MLive.com[/QUOTE]

For anyone to lay blame at the feet of the citizens of Flint is an out and out lie.
 
My wife works for one of the largest water treatment engineering firms in the world so water is a subject that means something to us. We have an artesian well and the water is better than any water a person can buy right out of the tap. Everyone should have safe water. Anyone that would compromise safe water needs to go to jail. Trying to figure out who that person/people is/are is going to be the problem here. It seems like incompetence is one resource that isn't lacking here.

Flints river was probably polluted from years of industrial waste polluting it. The river was not the cause of the lead poisoning, the source of the lead was the pipes that had not been used in years.
 
This if from the Detroit News - a conservative paper which always supports Republicans and is no friend of unions nor Democratic big city politicians.

The fall of Flint | The Detroit News

Pay attention to the numbers particularly jobs. This is about the loss of good paying manufacturing jobs in Flint leaving a city decimated and a shell of its former self.
 
This if from the Detroit News - a conservative paper which always supports Republicans and is no friend of unions nor Democratic big city politicians.

The fall of Flint | The Detroit News

Pay attention to the numbers particularly jobs. This is about the loss of good paying manufacturing jobs in Flint leaving a city decimated and a shell of its former self.

Great article. The downfall of our economy is slashing wages and moving industries to low wage nations like China and Mexico. We have a very poor tax base. We borrow money from bond holders to sell off municipalities and to buy privatized services. A real race to he bottom.
 
Great article. The downfall of our economy is slashing wages and moving industries to low wage nations like China and Mexico. We have a very poor tax base. We borrow money from bond holders to sell off municipalities and to buy privatized services. A real race to he bottom.

Too bad nothing exists that make company's stay in the United States.
 
If Mr. Moore really cared for the victims, he would pay for their flights to Cuba where they could receive care at one of those truly great hospitals that he documented so well.

at least he cares more than rick snyder, who unlike moore, is paid by the state of michigan to look after its citizen's interests
 
Laugh all you want but the people's whose lives were endangered don't think it is funny. Instead of directing their money to make sure their health was not at risk it was put on hold to be used toward deals with corporate interest.

Thank you I will laugh heartily at you characterizing a bankrupt city trying to cut expenses as somehow being a problem with the free market.
 
Too bad nothing exists that make company's stay in the United States.

Well, we have laws in place for people who wish to move and become residents of another country. Corporations aren't under the same scrutiny. Not only that, but they are rewarded by moving jobs overseas.

"Between 1999 and 2008, U.S. multinational corporations cut their domestic employment by 1.9 million. Over the same period U.S. multinationals increased their employment overseas by 2.4 million," Sullivan said.

But the picture is more complicated than that might seem. There is strong debate over the role that tax rates play in those job shifts. Some analysts, including Harvey, believe the real drivers could be lower wage rates and being closer to important markets around the globe.
However, regardless of the initial motivation, once companies make the move, in Sullivan’s words, "a toehold of real investment allows a truckload of profit to follow."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...says-tax-code-rewards-firms-shifting-jobs-ov/
 
Laugh all you want but the people's whose lives were endangered don't think it is funny. Instead of directing their money to make sure their health was not at risk it was put on hold to be used toward deals with corporate interest.

The government would be the party that did everything you just said.
 
Thank you I will laugh heartily at you characterizing a bankrupt city trying to cut expenses as somehow being a problem with the free market.

With some people whatever government does wrong is the fault of capitalism. No one except government can be involved and somehow someway it was those evil greedy business peoples fault.
 
Thank you I will laugh heartily at you characterizing a bankrupt city trying to cut expenses as somehow being a problem with the free market.

The whole reason they have no money is because they lost jobs to go overseas to low wage nations. There is no tax base and what money these people are paying (a lot in taxes) is going toward paying for private services provided by private corporations. No one cared about using that money to get them clean water while the private corporation was working on a pipeline. Their health was not a consideration at all, but more of an inconvenience saying they were trying to hide evidence that the water was unhealthy.
 
With some people whatever government does wrong is the fault of capitalism. No one except government can be involved and somehow someway it was those evil greedy business peoples fault.

The financial manager could care less about the health of these people. He decided the money was to be used elsewhere and that was not toward making sure they had clean safe water in the interim.
 
The whole reason they have no money is because they lost jobs to go overseas to low wage nations.

Then be more competitive so companies want to come there and people want to work there. :shrug:

The decline of Michigan is not a market failure.
 
A bankrupt entity has no choice but to cut corners.

That may be true, but if those 'corners' are benifiting the people and the act of cutting said corners would endanger the lives of the people, then the only moral choice is to go bankrupt rather than endanger the lives of the people.
 
Then be more competitive so companies want to come there and people want to work there. :shrug:

The decline of Michigan is not a market failure.

The US cannot compete against third world country wages. It is a market failure.
 
Then be more competitive so companies want to come there and people want to work there. :shrug:

The decline of Michigan is not a market failure.

The market encourages low wages and low standards for workers in order to be competitive.

The market needs to encourage high standards and high wages.
 
Back
Top Bottom