Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters

Moot said:

We don't know that the government didn't do anything. All we know is that to have allowed all the fence cutting, vandalism, arson and threats to FWS and BLM employees that went on and for as long as it did...it's obvious they didn't do enough. Some of the locals said the Hammonds started a lot of fires on BLM land and blamed it on lightening. So just because they only got charged for two fires doesn't mean they start a lot more.

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Huh? We know the Government (BLM specifically) prevent the Hammonds access to the water rights the Hammonds owned. BLM even challenged it in court and lost. Despite losing in court, BLM and FWS fenced in that water source to prevent the Hammonds access. BLM and FWS have denied the right of access granted to the Hammonds on roads in the wildlife refuge. Hammonds ignored BLM and FWS threats over right of access and water rights. BLM canceled half of the Hammonds grazing rights the following year.. Btw, that was just in the 1990s. Then on top of that BLM/Federal Government served Hammonds with a court order to build a fence around their ranch to keep their cattle of Federal lands despite Oregon being a free range state and despite agreement between Oregon and the Federal Government when it came to transfer of lands.

Yeah.. BLM is so innocent (civil law), cept for you know those things that are on Court records that I listed above.

Some of the locals? You mean the locals that have family members that work for the FWS/BLM and stand to gain if the Hammonds are off the land? Yep.. you can trust their honesty, right? Btw, under the rule of law, only way you are actually guilty of something is actually being convicted. They only have two "arson" convictions. But I guess to you.. guilty is assumed and nobody should be afforded the right of being innocent.

So under your view of the law.. since I accuse you of being a mass murder.. you are guilty of mass murder. But that's liberal logic for you.

Moot said:

2001 - The Hammond's informed the BLM after they started a fire to hide the poaching on BLM land.

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US Government alleged they were poaching. They weren't convicted of poaching or even seen as poaching by the jury. But you fail basic concepts of understanding the difference between accusations and conviction.

Moot said:

2006 - They didn't call the BLM at all. I doubt the BLM would've given them permission for a back burn during the middle of a burn ban, anyway. So instead they flew over the area and saw the fire fighters camp and then started fires right next to them which forced them quickly evacuate.

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And the BLM asked the local police to investigate and the local police laughed at BLM. BLM had no case in 2006 at all. It's why it sat in a file for 5 years until a new US Attorney took over. That new US Attorney had a name to make for herself.. and she did but she also was forced to resign for judicial and ethical "crimes".

Moot said:

Getting sentenced to five years in prison suggests the Hammond's were indeed convicted. It would be interesting to know if there are less lighting caused fires during they're incarceration.

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Yes, they were convicted and I never said they weren't. Rather I've said from the start that the Hammonds served their time in 2012/2013 but BLM need leverage to get the Hammonds to agree to "Right of Refusal" (basically it allows the BLM to buy their land over anybody else and prevents transfer of land from Father to Son) which the Hammonds refused for years. BLM went to the US Attorney to force the minimum mandatory as leverage to get "Right of Refusal" . Problem is once it's in the hands of DoJ top brass it's hard to pull back a case and the Hammonds are victims of double jeopardy and a zealous BLM/FWS who want their land which sits in an area that the BLM/FWS need to expand.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

Paperview said:

I haven't read back to see if this was posted yet,

but OMFG, they put out a beg-list for supplies...

It's freakin' PRICELESS. (this is no joke.)

------------------------------------------------

Warm Blankets
Sleeping Bags
Jackets Large and Extra Large
Thermals Medium Large
and Extra Large mens
Wool Socks
Hand and Feet Warmers
Women Thermals Medium
and Large Top and Bottoms
Slippers Small, Medium Large
Snow Pants Medium and Large
Snow Boots 7/12 to 8, 9, and 10
Miracle Whip
Mayonaise
Mustard
Ketchup
Hamburgers
Hot dogs
Brats
Buns / Bread
Any Canned Foods
Camp dry water Repellent
John Radios Ham
Digital Camera with charger
Hay
Money
Markers
Poster Board
Medicine
Laundry Detergent
Foam Pads
Egg Crates
Boxer Briefs - Medium/Large/and Extra Large
T Shirts M/L/XL
Razors
Queen Sized Bed Sheets
Twin Sized Bed Sheets
Pillow Cases
Shampoo
Conditioner
Body Wash
Towels
Wash Cloths
Deodorant
Shaving Creme
Safety Razors
Midland Radio from Walmart
Pens
Pencils
Notepads
Lighters
Candles
Flashlights
Batteries
Throw Rugs any & all size for doorways
Ice melt
Ice Scrappers
Shelf Units to store food
Ice chests
Aprans 4"
Kitchen Towels
Wash Rags
Antibacterial Hand Soap
Dish Soap
Chisel Point Markers
Plastic Silverware
Coffee Cups
Sanitizers
Gaming Supplies
Clorox Lysol wipes
Oven Cleaner
120 Grit sand papers
Propane Tanks
Portable Heaters
Wipes
Tampons
Pads
Eggs (Needed badly)
Coffee
French Vanilla Creamer
Shredded Cheese
Sliced Cheese
Sour Cream
Sugar
Flour
Fresh Veggies
Cigarettes Marlboro Red 100's
Marlboro Lights 100's
Pall Mall Menthol 100's
Chew Copenhagen

My favorites are Throw Rugs and French Vanilla creamer. :lol:

Click to expand...

What, no KY Jelly?

Wait, what am I saying. These are tough western men, they will just use axle grease. You can tell by the brown stain on the seat of their pants.

austrianecon said:

Huh? We know the Government (BLM specifically) prevent the Hammonds access to the water rights the Hammonds owned. BLM even challenged it in court and lost. Despite losing in court, BLM and FWS fenced in that water source to prevent the Hammonds access. BLM and FWS have denied the right of access granted to the Hammonds on roads in the wildlife refuge. Hammonds ignored BLM and FWS threats over right of access and water rights. BLM canceled half of the Hammonds grazing rights the following year.. Btw, that was just in the 1990s. Then on top of that BLM/Federal Government served Hammonds with a court order to build a fence around their ranch to keep their cattle of Federal lands despite Oregon being a free range state and despite agreement between Oregon and the Federal Government when it came to transfer of lands.

Yeah.. BLM is so innocent (civil law), cept for you know those things that are on Court records that I listed above.

Click to expand...

The court records show that the hearings were postponed...

US Government alleged they were poaching. They weren't convicted of poaching or even seen as poaching by the jury. But you fail basic concepts of understanding the difference between accusations and conviction. And the BLM asked the local police to investigate and the local police laughed at BLM. BLM had no case in 2006 at all. It's why it sat in a file for 5 years until a new US Attorney took over. That new US Attorney had a name to make for herself.. and she did but she also was forced to resign for judicial and ethical "crimes" but BLM need leverage to get the Hammonds to agree to "Right of Refusal" (basically it allows the BLM to buy their land over anybody else and prevents transfer of land from Father to Son) which the Hammonds refused for years. BLM went to the US Attorney to force the minimum mandatory as leverage to get "Right of Refusal" . ...

Click to expand...

The Hammond's were charged with a misdemeanor(s). They were arrested, charged, spent two nights in jail and eventually paid a $400K fine. As I understand it, a "right of refusal" means is that if the Hammond's didn't pay the fines for the damage they caused on the bird refuge, the FWS had the right to make the first offer to buy the Hammond's land. The Hammond's paid the fines. That's the extent of the so called BLM/FWS land grab.

Problem is once it's in the hands of DoJ top brass it's hard to pull back a case and the Hammonds are victims of double jeopardy and a zealous BLM/FWS who want their land which sits in an area that the BLM/FWS need to expand.

Click to expand...

Five years is a fair sentence considering the decades of vandalism, arson, and threats that the BLM/FWS suffered from the Hammonds....



The Hammond's bought their ranch in 1964. They didn't have a "right of way", historic or otherwise. The BLM/FWS have been building fences around the refuge land to keep cows out since the early 1900s after Teddy Roosevelt made it a wildlife refuge. Dwight Hammond wasn't even born then.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

Paperview said:

And "medicine."

That covers a lot.

And slippers!


And boxer shorts.

Miracle Whip AND mayonnaise.

That alone right there is bound to cause more strife.

Click to expand...

Sounds like they are all going bath house on us. By the time they come out of there they will look like the Village People.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

Paperview said:

I haven't read back to see if this was posted yet,

but OMFG, they put out a beg-list for supplies...

It's freakin' PRICELESS. (this is no joke.)

------------------------------------------------

Warm Blankets
Sleeping Bags
Jackets Large and Extra Large
Thermals Medium Large
and Extra Large mens
Wool Socks
Hand and Feet Warmers
Women Thermals Medium
and Large Top and Bottoms
Slippers Small, Medium Large
Snow Pants Medium and Large
Snow Boots 7/12 to 8, 9, and 10
Miracle Whip
Mayonaise
Mustard
Ketchup
Hamburgers
Hot dogs
Brats
Buns / Bread
Any Canned Foods
Camp dry water Repellent
John Radios Ham
Digital Camera with charger
Hay
Money
Markers
Poster Board
Medicine
Laundry Detergent
Foam Pads
Egg Crates
Boxer Briefs - Medium/Large/and Extra Large
T Shirts M/L/XL
Razors
Queen Sized Bed Sheets
Twin Sized Bed Sheets
Pillow Cases
Shampoo
Conditioner
Body Wash
Towels
Wash Cloths
Deodorant
Shaving Creme
Safety Razors
Midland Radio from Walmart
Pens
Pencils
Notepads
Lighters
Candles
Flashlights
Batteries
Throw Rugs any & all size for doorways
Ice melt
Ice Scrappers
Shelf Units to store food
Ice chests
Aprans 4"
Kitchen Towels
Wash Rags
Antibacterial Hand Soap
Dish Soap
Chisel Point Markers
Plastic Silverware
Coffee Cups
Sanitizers
Gaming Supplies
Clorox Lysol wipes
Oven Cleaner
120 Grit sand papers
Propane Tanks
Portable Heaters
Wipes
Tampons
Pads
Eggs (Needed badly)
Coffee
French Vanilla Creamer
Shredded Cheese
Sliced Cheese
Sour Cream
Sugar
Flour
Fresh Veggies
Cigarettes Marlboro Red 100's
Marlboro Lights 100's
Pall Mall Menthol 100's
Chew Copenhagen

My favorites are Throw Rugs and French Vanilla creamer. :lol:

Click to expand...

Gaming Supplies

They will be playing games I guess on some elses dime. These people must have studied with the occupiers.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

shrubnose said:

I know what an ice scraper is but what is an ice scrapper?

Those people need to make a trip to the local Walmart.

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Looks like a bunch of morons did not read their Boy Scout manuals before packing for the big occupation.

The lack of planning and common sense is hilarious.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

SMTA said:

Looks like a bunch of morons did not read their Boy Scout manuals before packing for the big occupation.

The lack of planning and common sense is hilarious.

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These far-right extremists will not achieve their goal.

Read more about them here: Armed group says it has accessed government files at refuge - Yahoo News

They have convicted themselves with their stupid videotaped statements.

:lol:

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

shrubnose said:

These far-right extremists will not achieve their goal.

Read more about them here: Armed group says it has accessed government files at refuge - Yahoo News

They have convicted themselves with their stupid videotaped statements.

:lol:

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I'm not buying any of their idiotic claims.

Anyone stupid enough to go on a trip with the other boys and forget to pack fresh underwear, food and clothing are complete morons.

Maybe them boys need to shoot some squirrels and make some of them thar pointy skewering sticks for cooking dinner.

mike2810 said:

I agree the Bundy's and the supporters are not helping.

Yes, in some areas there is a long history of conflict between the feds and the ranchers. One only needs to look at the expectations the public has on what is proper use of the "federal lands". It is not the 1900's any more. Recreational uses, protection of T&E species, wildlife improvements have become a bigger priority. Why, we have a lot more people in cities than are ranchers now days. Congress basically passes the laws/rules that federal land agencies must operate under. Blame them for the strive. Blame the ranchers for not willing to change the way they do business.

There will always be conflicts over the use of federal lands. imo, it pretty much is now a more political issue than good management of the land.
Ex: when protection of trees became a priority, the timber industry died in many areas because Congress bowed to the political pressure to reduce the timber harvest. What we have now in many areas are overgrown forests prone to crown fires.

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Less and less, Americans are venturing into our public lands, hunting too is in decline. I have no problem with cattle ranchers using BLM land not suited for too much more. Logging is still done. But less clear cutting and better management. Crown fires actually aren't all that common, and never happen on the federal forest land in the region which I live in.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

SMTA said:

I'm not buying any of their idiotic claims.

Anyone stupid enough to go on a trip with the other boys and forget to pack fresh underwear, food and clothing are complete morons.

Maybe them boys need to shoot some squirrels and make some of them thar pointy skewering sticks for cooking dinner.

Click to expand...

These drugstore cowboys wouldn't have an idea how to field dress a squirrel. They are just going to sit out there and wait till somebody brings them some tv dinners.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

Crusdr57 said:

The article mentions, "It's a pipe dream, [for the State(s) to have the Feds hand over the land to them]" and I agree.

Also states, "....Utah is the only state to pass a law demanding that Washington hand over federal land to the state. That transfer never happened, so now, Republicans on a state land commission are pressing for a $14 million lawsuit to claim 31.2 million federal acres of canyons, scrub desert and rolling mesas. The state’s attorney general, a Republican, has said he is studying the case and will make a decision about whether to move forward.....


..........Colorado’s experience illustrates how the land-transfer discussion far exceeds any concrete results. Last year, a Republican state senator from the agricultural eastern plains sponsored a bill to create a Colorado Federal Land Management Commission, to study turning over federal lands to the state. The measure never made it out of the Republican-controlled State Senate.....



........And in December, Phil Lyman, a commissioner in San Juan County, Utah, received a 10-day jail sentence after he led a protest ride on all-terrain vehicles through a federal area that had been closed to motorized use.

“All I did was drive down a canyon road,” Mr. Lyman said. “It seems to be getting worse, and the federal agencies, they are expanding. Their restraints are being overstepped. It’s not the way this country was set up. It’s not the founders’ design...”



I'm sure there are much better, and much more effective methods to protest Fed Laws and Policies. Apparently, these 'protesters' feel they must violate the Law to get attention for their cause(s). (All he did was 'drive down the road' knowing full well he was violating the Law.:roll: )

The Federal Govt. simply will not just hand over the lands they now own. The Reps of our Western States will first have to grow a spine, and then get tough,...MUCH tougher than they 'are' right now.

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I agree with what you have posted. I would view an attempt to reverse the Feds land grab effort as difficult at best, and likely improbable at worst. However, it shouldn't stop leaders and citizens in Western States from bringing attention to the issue.

Regarding the protest from the Bundy folks, I think they are a bit misdirected. Yet, what I find most interesting is the reaction from people on the left who seem to forget it has been protest and illegal occupation that has fueled so many of their pet agendas over the years.

Their hypocrisy on this point couldn't be more transparent.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

Crosscheck said:

These drugstore cowboys wouldn't have an idea how to field dress a squirrel. They are just going to sit out there and wait till somebody brings them some tv dinners.

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Maybe we can all chip in and mail them this? :mrgreen:

Montecresto said:

Less and less, Americans are venturing into our public lands, hunting too is in decline. I have no problem with cattle ranchers using BLM land not suited for too much more. Logging is still done. But less clear cutting and better management. Crown fires actually aren't all that common, and never happen on the federal forest land in the region which I live in.

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There is so much wrong with your statements. Provide a source of your information.

Land not suited for much more according to who? You?
Please explain the overgrown forests if management is so much better.


Glad to here you have not had large wildfires in your area. That is not the trend nation wide.
Wildfires that are over 1000 acres in size are up.
https://www.climatecentral.org/wgts/wildfires/Wildfires2012.pdf


Do you have a problem with ranchers not paying their grazing fees?
Do you have a problem where cattle grazing destroys riparian habitat?

(Here is a clue. My education is in forestry with a masters in wildfire science. I spent 30 years in resources /wildfire management) There are ranchers who are good stewards of the land. There are some that are not.

mike2810 said:

There is so much wrong with your statements. Provide a source of your information.

Land not suited for much more according to who? You?
Please explain the overgrown forests if management is so much better.


Glad to here you have not had large wildfires in your area. That is not the trend nation wide.
Wildfires that are over 1000 acres in size are up.
https://www.climatecentral.org/wgts/wildfires/Wildfires2012.pdf


Do you have a problem with ranchers not paying their grazing fees?
Do you have a problem where cattle grazing destroys riparian habitat?

(Here is a clue. My education is in forestry with a masters in wildfire science. I spent 30 years in resources /wildfire management) There are ranchers who are good stewards of the land. There are some that are not.

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Yep, there are ranchers that are good at land management, and there are those that are not. :shrug:

Yes, ranchers should pay their fees.

Cattle grazing destroys riparian habitat like building cities does, or any number of development that advances human interests. Are you a vegetarian.

I didn't say we don't have large wildfires, I said we don't have the "crown fires" you were worried about.

Not suited to much according to every swinging dick in the thread that thinks the Feds aren't holding lands that anybody wants to use.

Montecresto said:

The blast comes at a time when Turkey is dealing with multiple security threats -- from longstanding nemesis the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, as well as ISIS, which has taken over swaths of Syria and Iraq on its quest to form a far-reaching caliphate.

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Yep, there are ranchers that are good at land management, and there are those that are not. :shrug:

Yes, ranchers should pay their fees.

Cattle grazing destroys riparian habitat like building cities does, or any number of development that advances human interests. Are you a vegetarian.

I didn't say we don't have large wildfires, I said we don't have the "crown fires" you were worried about.

Not suited to much according to every swinging dick in the thread that thinks the Feds aren't holding lands that anybody wants to use.

Click to expand...

This sentence has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

shrubnose said:

This sentence has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

Click to expand...

Lol. I don't have a clue shrub. There, I took it out.

Update:

New York Daily News ‏@NYDailyNews:: 'Going to send Mr. Bundy the bill': Oregon militia face $75K fine each day of occupation http://nydn.us/1l31hEI

Paperview said:

Update:

New York Daily News ‏@NYDailyNews:: 'Going to send Mr. Bundy the bill': Oregon militia face $75K fine each day of occupation http://nydn.us/1l31hEI

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That's absurd. He's factoring in the cost of teachers who didn't go to work? Ridiculous! Factoring in the cost of cops for "additional security"? Why were they even needed and what bed wetter decided to post them?

Montecresto said:

Yep, there are ranchers that are good at land management, and there are those that are not. :shrug:

Yes, ranchers should pay their fees.

Cattle grazing destroys riparian habitat like building cities does, or any number of development that advances human interests. Are you a vegetarian.

I didn't say we don't have large wildfires, I said we don't have the "crown fires" you were worried about.

Not suited to much according to every swinging dick in the thread that thinks the Feds aren't holding lands that anybody wants to use.

Click to expand...

Nope, eat good beef all the time

It is clear you have not looked into studies about grazing and riparian areas.

Ok. For your mind I should have stated destructive fires. Happy Now.:mrgreen:

Seems your responses are getting off topic.

The protesters at the refuge are doing so illegally. Using the protesters logic, the land is as much as mine as theirs. I want them off the land.

Funny how a small group believes the State resource division will do a better job.

Re: Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers’ Prison Terms

Crosscheck said:

What, no KY Jelly?

Wait, what am I saying. These are tough western men, they will just use axle grease. You can tell by the brown stain on the seat of their pants.

Click to expand...

:lol: :lol: :lol:



IF they're so tough, why do they need tampons???

I told my brother a while ago that cigs, (and beer) are luxury items....funny, he didn't like that!

Moot said:

The court records show that the hearings were postponed...

'...On Aug. 11, Rep. Bob Smith, R-Ore., weighed in on the Hammonds' behalf in a letter to U.S. Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt. "The acts of your agents last week cause my constituents to lose faith in their government," wrote Smith, who was under the erroneous impression that Hammond was arrested at his home rather than on refuge land.

The pressure apparently paid off. On Aug. 15, the U.S. attorney's office in Portland reduced the charges against the Hammonds from felonies carrying a maximum penalty of three years in federal prison and a $250,000 fine to misdemeanors that could mean jail terms of up to one year and fines of up to $100,000 on each count. A hearing on the charges, originally scheduled for early September, has been postponed indefinitely....."

Ranchers arrested at wildlife refuge ? High Country News​

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US Fish and Wildlife Service challenged the Hammonds right to the water in an Oregon State Circuit Court. FSW/BLM lost in court. FSW/BLM went ahead and began building the fence. Hence the charge you mention above. The Hammonds were following the law and the FWS/BLM were breaking it. Hammonds were hit with a federal charge as to avoid it going to State court as FWS and BLM would have been found in contempt of court.

Btw, you don't as a prosecutor plea down if you got someone dead to rights to the higher charge unless you WANT to avoid a trial in which you'd have a case of trying Federal land polices (10th amendment issues). Not really a case the Federal Government wants to have.

Moot said:

The Hammond's were charged with a misdemeanor(s). They were arrested, charged, spent two nights in jail and eventually paid a $400K fine.

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Yes for the run in over the illegal fence being built by FWS/BLM around their water source. But you notice Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert Thomson said they found a reasonable solution for the "crime". For the "arson" that was NEVER ever tried. US Attorney at the time literally threw the book at them (Terrorism charges).

Moot said:

As I understand it, a "right of refusal" means is that if the Hammond's didn't pay the fines for the damage they caused on the bird refuge, the FWS had the right to make the first offer to buy the Hammond's land. The Hammond's paid the fines. That's the extent of the so called BLM/FWS land grab.

Click to expand...

No, "right of refusal" means if you try to sell your ranch at ANYTIME, someone (in this case BLM) gets first dibs and can buy at a lower rate then the market (which would be the case with the Hammond ranch). The court (civil) did not give a deadline in the right of refusal which means it's in perpetuity despite the Hammond paying the $400,000 in fines. That means while the Hammonds (father and son ) are in prison for the next 4 years or so.. if the ranch has to be sold, BLM gets it.

Moot said:

Five years is a fair sentence considering the decades of vandalism, arson, and threats that the BLM/FWS suffered from the Hammonds....

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No, this is the problem that I have with people who justify the sentence as fair because of previous acts. Our justice was set up as system that previous acts and convictions meant nothing. But it morphed into this 3 strikes law (California) and past record plays a role as a way to give longer sentences to minorities. This is a major reason why I support criminal justice reform.

When you serve your time (especially under Federal law), your previous acts should have no role in judgement. Once you get out of jail your slate is "clean", so your past crime has no bearing on your future as you served your time.

Moot said:

The Hammond's bought their ranch in 1964. They didn't have a "right of way", historic or otherwise. The BLM/FWS have been building fences around the refuge land to keep cows out since the early 1900s after Teddy Roosevelt made it a wildlife refuge. Dwight Hammond wasn't even born then.

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Actually, "right of way" transfers in sale of land. Ranchers don't buy land without it. And no, FWS/BLM haven't been building fence since 1900s around the refuge and on top of that the the Steen Mountain range (Steens Act of 2000) also sits against the Hammond Ranch. Rather the Steens act says it's BLM responsibility and if not fences it's free range area.

Don't get me wrong.. I don't support what the Bundy's are doing or even arson. But I have major issues with the goal posts being moved by Government and Government failing in A) up holding what they are legally required to do and B) excessive power abuse to get what they want.

mike2810 said:

Nope, eat good beef all the time

It is clear you have not looked into studies about grazing and riparian areas.

Ok. For your mind I should have stated destructive fires. Happy Now.:mrgreen:

Seems your responses are getting off topic.

The protesters at the refuge are doing so illegally. Using the protesters logic, the land is as much as mine as theirs. I want them off the land.

Funny how a small group believes the State resource division will do a better job.

Click to expand...

Ok, you eat good beef. So you support grazing.

I have looked into grazing as it relates to riparian areas.

It shouldn't be for my mind, it should be for your consistency.

I don't support the actions of the protesters at the wildlife refuge. I think that rather than advancing the interests of western ranchers, and gaining public support for such that they harm the efforts thereof. :shrug:

Montecresto said:

Ok, you eat good beef. So you support grazing.

I have looked into grazing as it relates to riparian areas.

It shouldn't be for my mind, it should be for your consistency.

I don't support the actions of the protesters at the wildlife refuge. I think that rather than advancing the interests of western ranchers, and gaining public support for such that they harm the efforts thereof. :shrug:

Click to expand...

I support grazing on public lands that is done under good management that takes into account the needs of the rancher and wildlife in the area. By law public lands must be managed for multiple uses.

We agree. I do not support what he protesters are doing. I also do not support when a rancher "thinks" the public land is there land. They are allowed to graze what the carrying capacity will tolerate. The carrying capacity takes into account the wildlife that utilizes the same browse as cattle. The rancher also needs to keep up with the grazing permit fee if they wish to continue utilizing the range land.

Montecresto said:

Less and less, Americans are venturing into our public lands, hunting too is in decline. I have no problem with cattle ranchers using BLM land not suited for too much more. Logging is still done. But less clear cutting and better management. Crown fires actually aren't all that common, and never happen on the federal forest land in the region which I live in.

Click to expand...

BWhahahaha less people are hunting? Where the **** do you live, in the inner city somewhere?

And crown fires happen a lot in the National Forests. What region are you in?

Funny how these "anti-government" protesters rely on disability payments, social security and other 'welfare' type payments to survive.

One of the Malheur mob is now suffering for his actions

Oregon Militia Member Gets Hit Right Where It Hurts, Way Worse Than Being Arrested

One of the Oregon militants has a problem beyond the possibility of getting arrested. Robert “LaVoy” Finicum, who hails from Arizona but decided to join Ammon and Ryan Bundy in the standoff in Oregon, apparently left several foster children behind with his wife. Now, it seems the state of Arizona has taken them away. Finicum was living off the subsidies he was getting for those children, which calls into question just why he’s so upset.

Finicum does have a ranch in Chino Valley, but he and his wife break even on it at best. Catholic Charities, however, paid the Finicums roughly $115,000 for 2010, for fostering children, and Finicum flatly admits that foster children are his primary income:

“That was my main source of income. My ranch, well, the cows just cover the costs of the ranch. If this means rice and beans for the next few years, so be it. We’re going to stay the course.”

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Click to expand...

Maybe if he was better at ranching, caring for foster children wouldn't be quite so important. I wonder how much labour he was getting from the kids.